Death Penalty

[Thermal]

Link to a long article about this case. Having now read most of it, I would be fine with life without parole as a sentence. That is pretty much where I was before, but this article provided some additional details.

Johnson is quoted in the article as saying "I don't even know why the shooting happened". Perhaps we can answer this conundrum for him.

Johnson walked up to the sitting cop two days later and shot him five times, then returned to pop him twice more in the head. Then he went through the cops pockets.

"The shooting happened" because Johnson murdered him.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Mr. Johnson's mental illness

Johnson is quoted in the article as saying "I don't even know why the shooting happened". Perhaps we can answer this conundrum for him.

Johnson walked up to the sitting cop two days later and shot him five times, then returned to pop him twice more in the head. Then he went through the cops pockets.

"The shooting happened" because Johnson murdered him.

I think you mean two hours later, not two days.

"'I think as humans, we tend to shift the blame,' Johnson says. 'I don’t think [McEntee] did anything that was wrong that day that I can even blame him for.'"
And
"Johnson’s repeated exposure to violent abuse and neglect “is among the most extreme cases that this psychiatrist has ever seen in his 40 years of practice and 30 plus years of performing psychiatric evaluations in connection with capital litigation,” forensic psychiatrist Richard Dudley wrote."

 

[Thermal]

I think you mean two hours later, not two days.

Yes, I did. My mistake and thanks for the correction.

"'I think as humans, we tend to shift the blame,' Johnson says. 'I don’t think [McEntee] did anything that was wrong that day that I can even blame him for.'"
And
"Johnson’s repeated exposure to violent abuse and neglect “is among the most extreme cases that this psychiatrist has ever seen in his 40 years of practice and 30 plus years of performing psychiatric evaluations in connection with capital litigation,” forensic psychiatrist Richard Dudley wrote."

Johnson presents the classic cold busted murder defense. "My victim didn't do anything, but I murdered him because I was mad, but hey it's not really my fault that I was basically a wild animal. That's on somebody else that I turned out this way. Can we let me slide?"

I think that's ridiculous. The argument can be raised that more black men are given this sentence, and that disproprtionality should be explored. But to say a flat out execution of a cop is not worthy of the death penalty is a bit odd.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Special prosecutor E.E. Keenan

I think that's ridiculous. The argument can be raised that more black men are given this sentence, and that disproprtionality should be explored. But to say a flat out execution of a cop is not worthy of the death penalty is a bit odd.

I don't think that killing a cop should elicit a greater penalty than killing anyone else. I also think that life in prison is not letting someone slide.

The question of racial bias was explored, lead to the special prosecutor's findings. However, those finding were ignored. See the links above or this one. "Ott denied [special prosecutor] Keenan’s motion on November 16 and in a later order on November 19 cited the time constraints preventing parties from appropriately preparing for a hearing and the court from “thoughtfully consider[ing]” the facts. Ott wrote that it was “inexplicable” that these claims were brought forward only 14 days prior to Johnson’s execution date and found it “disconcerting” that the St. Louis County Prosecutor’s office requested the court appoint a special prosecutor only a month earlier in October."

 

[Thermal]

I don't think that killing a cop should elicit a greater penalty than killing anyone else.

It is arguable that murdering an authority figure entrusted with keeping the peace and...you know...apprehending murderers....shows an extra level of contempt for society and a refusal to live in it peacefully.

I also think that life in prison is not letting someone slide.

Again, its arguable whether life in a cage is better or worse than "getting it over with", but Johnson sure seems to prefer to 86 the sentence in favor of it.

The question of racial bias was explored, lead to the special prosecutor's findings. However, those finding were ignored. See the links above or this one. "Ott denied [special prosecutor] Keenan’s motion on November 16 and in a later order on November 19 cited the time constraints preventing parties from appropriately preparing for a hearing and the court from “thoughtfully consider[ing]” the facts. Ott wrote that it was “inexplicable” that these claims were brought forward only 14 days prior to Johnson’s execution date and found it “disconcerting” that the St. Louis County Prosecutor’s office requested the court appoint a special prosecutor only a month earlier in October."

The prosecution cited one similar case where a white murderer got life instead of death. Not sure that constitutes a pattern?

 

[Suddenly]

It is arguable that murdering an authority figure entrusted with keeping the peace and...you know...apprehending murderers....shows an extra level of contempt for society and a refusal to live in it peacefully.

You want to use the choice of target as evidence of soberly held contempt for the system. Fine.

It does contradict rejecting evidence about his inability to control himself though. It's all part of the same picture when considering punishment.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Forster case

The prosecution cited one similar case where a white murderer got life instead of death. Not sure that constitutes a pattern?

"The fifth case involved a white defendant named Trenton Forster. In that case, McCulloch sought life. Forster’s conduct was far more aggravated than that of the other defendants, Keenan found. Among other things, Forster had bragged on social media about wanting to kill cops, suggesting that his attack was premeditated. Nonetheless, McCulloch took the extraordinary step of giving Forster’s public defender nearly a year to provide mitigating evidence that might convince McCulloch not to seek a death sentence."

I perceive that there are both aggravating and mitigating circumstances in the Johnson case; however, the premeditation is clearer in the Forster case. What I find harder to get my mind around is Ott's rejecting the special prosecutor's conclusions on the basis of time. Why not grant a stay to let his report be considered?

 

[Thermal]

You want to use the choice of target as evidence of soberly held contempt for the system. Fine.

It does contradict rejecting evidence about his inability to control himself though. It's all part of the same picture when considering punishment.

I don't "want" to do anything. I acknowledge that it is arguable. I think in Johnson's case, it is likely personal, and he thought he saw the cop "smirk" earlier when Johnson's brother died. Smirks and grimaces can be easily confused, though.

 

[Thermal]

"The fifth case involved a white defendant named Trenton Forster. In that case, McCulloch sought life. Forster’s conduct was far more aggravated than that of the other defendants, Keenan found. Among other things, Forster had bragged on social media about wanting to kill cops, suggesting that his attack was premeditated. Nonetheless, McCulloch took the extraordinary step of giving Forster’s public defender nearly a year to provide mitigating evidence that might convince McCulloch not to seek a death sentence."

I perceive that there are both aggravating and mitigating circumstances in the Johnson case; however, the premeditation is clearer in the Forster case.

I didn't go through the Foster circumstances, but merely observe that one case shouldn't determine a pattern.

What I find harder to get my mind around is Ott's rejecting the special prosecutor's conclusions on the basis of time. Why not grant a stay to let his report be considered?

The 11th hour nature of it does seem a bit contrived. I mean, oral arguments were being heard a day and a half before the scheduled execution. It does smack of throwing up a Hail Mary, rather than a considered defense.

 

[Warp12]

JUST IN: For the second time in the past week, SCOTUS denies an emergency request to block the execution of Kevin Johnson. The execution is scheduled for tonight in Missouri. Sonia Sotomayor and Ketanji Brown Jackson dissent from the brief order allowing the execution to proceed.

Kevin Johnson, 37, was put to death by lethal injection at the state prison in Bonne Terre. Johnson had admitted to shooting and killing Kirkwood police Sgt. William McEntee in 2005. Johnson was 19 at the time.

As expected.

 

[Warp12]

"The fifth case involved a white defendant named Trenton Forster. In that case, McCulloch sought life. Forster’s conduct was far more aggravated than that of the other defendants, Keenan found. Among other things, Forster had bragged on social media about wanting to kill cops, suggesting that his attack was premeditated. Nonetheless, McCulloch took the extraordinary step of giving Forster’s public defender nearly a year to provide mitigating evidence that might convince McCulloch not to seek a death sentence."

I perceive that there are both aggravating and mitigating circumstances in the Johnson case; however, the premeditation is clearer in the Forster case. What I find harder to get my mind around is Ott's rejecting the special prosecutor's conclusions on the basis of time. Why not grant a stay to let his report be considered?

I agree that there is no place for racial discrimination when it comes to such penalties. But my angle isn't that Johnson was deserving of clemency. My angle is that they should have killed the white guys also, if their crimes were equal or worse. A lot of people seem to go on record as being completely against the death penalty, no matter the circumstance...but then a situation like this arises and they pretend the main problem is racism, or some such issue. It would not change their condemnation of the death penalty, regardless.

 

[The Atheist]

Thanks for the reminder to check my calendar. I see it's still 2022.

Lovely to see people advocating for a barbaric punishment in an allegedly enlightened country deep in the 21st century.

Do carry on.

 

[Bob001]

I agree that there is no place for racial discrimination when it comes to such penalties. But my angle isn't that Johnson was deserving of clemency. My angle is that they should have killed the white guys also, if their crimes were equal or worse. A lot of people seem to go on record as being completely against the death penalty, no matter the circumstance...but then a situation like this arises and they pretend the main problem is racism, or some such issue. It would not change their condemnation of the death penalty, regardless.

Why is it necessary to kill anybody? Life in prison protects the community, punishes the killer, eliminates the possibility of executing somebody for a crime he didn't commit, and leaves at least the possibility that an injustice can be remedied.

 

[The Atheist]

...eliminates the possibility of executing somebody for a crime he didn't commit...

If neither Benjamin Franklin's nor Lord Blackstone's statements over 200 years ago haven't sunk in yet, they never will.

 

[Warp12]

Why is it necessary to kill anybody? Life in prison protects the community, punishes the killer, eliminates the possibility of executing somebody for a crime he didn't commit, and leaves at least the possibility that an injustice can be remedied.

Yeah, these are the exact debates that are a waste of time. Because based on the highlighted philosophy, at the end of the day I am fairly certain that if you witnessed a killer shoot someone 5x, then kill their kids with a hatchet, set their house on fire, and go back to urinate on the bodies...you still would not support the death penalty in that case. It doesn't matter if the guilt is absolute, or the crime heinous.

But if I am wrong, please tell me differently.

As I stated:

A lot of people seem to go on record as being completely against the death penalty, no matter the circumstance...but then a situation like this arises and they pretend the main problem is racism, or some such issue. It would not change their condemnation of the death penalty, regardless.

 

[Dave Rogers]

It seems to me that a vital part of the argument in favour of the death penalty is the assumption that being opposed to the death penalty invalidates any argument one may present.

Dave

 

[Bob001]

Yeah, these are the exact debates that are a waste of time. Because based on the highlighted philosophy, at the end of the day I am fairly certain that if you witnessed a killer shoot someone 5x, then kill their kids with a hatchet, set their house on fire, and go back to urinate on the bodies...you still would not support the death penalty in that case. It doesn't matter if the guilt is absolute, or the crime heinous.
.....

You didn't answer the question: Why is it necessary to kill anybody? What public purpose is served that is not fulfilled by life imprisonment?

 

[Thermal]

You didn't answer the question: Why is it necessary to kill anybody? What public purpose is served that is not fulfilled by life imprisonment?

Not addressed to me, but how about public tax savings in the upkeep of a citizen who has basically no rights and is treated like an unloved pet? There is a school of thought that thinks that is torture.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The cost of imprisonment vs. execution

Not addressed to me, but how about public tax savings in the upkeep of a citizen who has basically no rights and is treated like an unloved pet? There is a school of thought that thinks that is torture.

According to some, it is more expensive to execute someone than to imprison them for life. Link1. Link2. Link3. I think that the economics of determining present value might be part of this calculation, but that is just an educated guess.

Mr. Johnson had a daughter, and from what I remember, they had a positive relationship. BTW she was refused a chance to witness the execution on debatable grounds. See this link. IMO life inprisonment in solitary confinement is inhumane.

 

[Thermal]

According to some, it is more expensive to execute someone than to imprison them for life. Link1. Link2. Link3. I think that the economics of determining present value might be part of this calculation, but that is just an educated guess.

It's a somewhat tangental argument, but court costs and time are not extreme. It's the lawyers, experts etc who jack them both into oblivion, and force people to forfeit their rights because they can't afford to do otherwise. A wholesale streamlining of the process is long overdue.

Mr. Johnson had a daughter, and from what I remember, they had a positive relationship. BTW she was refused a chance to witness the execution on debatable grounds. See this link. IMO life inprisonment in solitary confinement is inhumane.

Agreed on the latter point, even if not in strictly solitary. The only benefit is that hope can be held onto by the convicted, which is largely like hoping to win the lottery.