The Supernatural Part II

[IanS]

No bigoted and illiterate person in the past 14 centuries or even in the present time can tell the contents of the Quran. This content is unique and said by God alone.

You are merely making a claim when you say "This content is unique and said by God alone." ... you have no evidence at all to show that any God produced the Quran ...

... you may believe that God dictated the Quran, but your religious beliefs are not evidence ...

... you may claim that you have evidence from thinking that you have found science in the Quran, but that is again merely a claim of science from you ... and all of science, completely disagrees with you and says that there is zero evidence of any modern science revealed by a God in any Quran.

All that you have here, and it seems to be all that you have in life, is a fanatical belief in religion, for which you have no independent evidence whatsoever.

Only fanatical fundamentalist Muslims like yourself believe they have found science in the Quran … nobody else anywhere in the world, including the most highly educated scientists themselves, believes or says that any of your religious fanatical science claims have any truth at all.

 

[JayUtah]

No bigoted and illiterate person in the past 14 centuries or even in the present time can tell the contents of the Quran.

Quite a number of people over the past 14 centuries have taken it upon themselves to read and interpret the Qur'an. Quite a number of them have likely been bigoted and comparatively illiterate. Similarly, quite a number of other people have fastened onto interpretations of the Qur'an -- and, to be fair, interpretations of other holy writ -- that are not strictly fair and well-informed.

There's nothing magical about the Qur'an, or about any book, that protects it from being interpreted and preached badly.

This content is unique and said by God alone.

No, the content is quite clearly borrowed from other contemporary texts. All religious believers claim their holy books are the words of their gods. We treat your claim no differently in the absence of distinguishing evidence.

Your advice makes sense. But it is clear from your words that; You have no study about the history of religions and the history of Arabia in the seventh century.

You seem very certain about what your critics have not studied, but you are fairly disinterested in having a discussion that would require you to demonstrate your allegedly superior understanding. So far your ploy seems to be to spew relatively unimpressive Islamic fanaticism and then accuse everyone else of being ignorant.

In fact, your dismissive approach pretty much provides the evidence for which side of Pixel42's dichotomy you advocate.

Besides, you are not familiar with the words and texts of the holy books and the Qur'an.

Actually your critics seem to be demonstrating a better knowledge than you. All we get from you is repeated bluster and pseudoscientific pontification.

Further, your particular claims require not only a detailed understanding of the Qur'an and the religion of Islam, but also a correct understanding of science. Both are premises to an argument that the Qur'an accurately predicts modern scientific discovery.

You are scientifically illiterate.

It would be best for you not to try to call out others for their supposed lack of understanding when you admit ignorance -- and can demonstrate that ignorance easily -- of the other premise upon which your argument lies. Your particular combination of ignorance and arrogance will not convince anyone.

 

[Pixel42]

Hi
We fully accept your remarks in this message. It is logical. Basically, my Quranic studies have been based on this. No bigoted and illiterate person in the past 14 centuries or even in the present time can tell the contents of the Quran. This content is unique and said by God alone.
Your advice makes sense. But it is clear from your words that; You have no study about the history of religions and the history of Arabia in the seventh century. Besides, you are not familiar with the words and texts of the holy books and the Qur'an. We advise you to act according to the logic you say first.
Thank you

My knowledge of history and science are more than adequate to evaluate and dismiss your claims. Not having been brainwashed from birth also helps.

We have told you over and over what would be real evidence for them, and it should be easy to provide if they are true, yet you continue to ignore us. Can you, or can you not, use the Qu'ran to predict a future scientific discovery? If you cannot then we are done here.

 

[Skeptic General]

What I said to Emre's thread applies to this one.

"Maurice Bucaille. The man pushed this into the muslim religion, with the Saudi funding.
You can not find infirmation about his funeral or burial site on the internet. If you do, please let me know. (Emre/... should know ?)
There are actually muslim scholars that exposed his plays with Quranic words and strongly rejected him. But to this day their voices are stifled by proponents of this deception."

 

[heydarian saeed]

It is said in Surah 7, verse 29 that; (Only the last three words of this verse) Just as I created the universe from nothingness (singularity) and opened it. I will return you as before. And this is very easy for me. Tell me which person or all people in the history of mankind said such a thing. And he has said this very huge and difficult claim. This claim must have been made by a being who dominates the entire universe.
His knowledge and power must dominate the entire universe from the beginning of creation to the end. Time does not surround him. And it is outside of time and universe. Only God has these qualities. It is foolish to say that an illiterate bigot said these words 14 centuries ago. And it is written in the book of the Qur'an. No way it can. No human being, not even all human beings throughout history, can ever say such words. This is a huge claim outside the scope of the universe and time. Only God alone can say. I advise you to think with the truth and reality. Do not be prejudiced.
Thanks

 

[steenkh]

It is said in Surah 7, verse 29 that; (Only the last three words of this verse) Just as I created the universe from nothingness (singularity) and opened it.

Well, the Bible which is older than the Qur’an, says the same thing, and that is also written by humans. So it is not a very difficult thing to claim.

It is quite another thing to prove that there is a god who could have inspired people to such writings, because people have very good imaginations.

Tell us, who created your god? If you think that nobody created him, then tell us how that can be so, and if you think that only god could not be created, then tell us why the universe needs a creator.

 

[heydarian saeed]

My knowledge of history and science are more than adequate to evaluate and dismiss your claims. Not having been brainwashed from birth also helps.

We have told you over and over what would be real evidence for them, and it should be easy to provide if they are true, yet you continue to ignore us. Can you, or can you not, use the Qu'ran to predict a future scientific discovery? If you cannot then we are done here.

Please read message 165. This is also an example of the prediction of modern science in the Qur'an. I have mentioned several examples before. You are biased and unfortunately ignore. Of course, your knowledge is also very little in understanding the Qur'anic content and the history of religions. I have no advice for you.

 

[Pixel42]

It is said in Surah 7, verse 29 that; (Only the last three words of this verse) Just as I created the universe from nothingness (singularity) and opened it. I will return you as before. And this is very easy for me. Tell me which person or all people in the history of mankind said such a thing. And he has said this very huge and difficult claim. This claim must have been made by a being who dominates the entire universe.
His knowledge and power must dominate the entire universe from the beginning of creation to the end. Time does not surround him. And it is outside of time and universe. Only God has these qualities. It is foolish to say that an illiterate bigot said these words 14 centuries ago. And it is written in the book of the Qur'an. No way it can. No human being, not even all human beings throughout history, can ever say such words. This is a huge claim outside the scope of the universe and time. Only God alone can say. I advise you to think with the truth and reality. Do not be prejudiced.
Thanks

More preaching? Why? You know it cuts no ice with us.

Please read message 165. This is also an example of the prediction of modern science in the Qur'an. I have mentioned several examples before. You are biased and unfortunately ignore. Of course, your knowledge is also very little in understanding the Qur'anic content and the history of religions. I have no advice for you.

Message 165 contains no predictions of scientific discoveries at all, let alone ones yet to be made. A claim to have made the universe from nothingness is not a description of the Big Bang, however much you insist it is. It certainly isn't a description of a scientific discovery which has not yet been made.

You clearly cannot do what would be simple to do if your claims were true. Your claims are therefore dismissed.

 

[JayUtah]

Just as I created the universe from nothingness (singularity)...

A singularity is not "nothingness." Nor would you have thought to make that comparison (as wrong as it is) unless someone had first given you the idea of a singularity. As I mentioned either in this thread or in the other Islam-as-science thread, you're simply reading (and misunderstanding) modern science and then trying to take credit for it after the fact by comically shoehorning your scripture into what you think science says.

Tell me which person or all people in the history of mankind said such a thing.

Literally every prior religion makes those claims about its god(s) and the creation of the universe. You tell us we must be well versed in history -- especially the history of religions -- in order to appreciate your argument. It seems all you know is one specific slice of fundamentalist Islam. You're not the teacher here.

And he has said this very huge and difficult claim. This claim must have been made by a being who dominates the entire universe.

It's being made by a person about a deity. Further, you provide no evidence either for the existence of the deity or for the truthfulness of the claim. This is simply you preaching your religion. It's not a proof.

It is foolish to say that an illiterate bigot said these words 14 centuries ago.

An illiterate bigot can invent a god as well as the next man, and ascribe to him -- without evidence -- all manner of magical power. You're literally unable to separate the claim from proof of the claim. If you start the discussion by saying the Qur'an must be true because it makes profound claims, then you're not really intellectually prepared to discuss your religion with those who aren't members of it.

 

[IanS]

It is said in Surah 7, verse 29 that; (Only the last three words of this verse) Just as I created the universe from nothingness (singularity) and opened it. I will return you as before. And this is very easy for me. Tell me which person or all people in the history of mankind said such a thing. And he has said this very huge and difficult claim. This claim must have been made by a being who dominates the entire universe.

Why must any such sentence have been made only by "a being who dominates the entire universe" - you have to be astonishingly naive or mentally defective to believe that!

Anyone could write a sentence like that. Any 12 year old schoolboy could write it!

What you have there is merely a silly childish claim from someone in the 7th century who said (without any evidence or any modern education) that someone had told him that a God had once said he had created this universe from "nothingness" ... anyone can say that! ...

... also I bet the word "singularity" which you decided to include does NOT appear in any original 7th century version of the Quran. And more than that ; no current version of the Big Bang model includes any "singularity" ... the state of a singularity is never reached, and that is NOT needed or included in any of the current big bang descriptions ...

... and yet more - what do you think "Nothing" actually is? What sort of thing do you think "No Thing" is?? ... as far as science can tell, there is no such state as truly "nothing"! ... that is - as far as current quantum field analysis of the big bang is concerned, it seems inescapable that the universe must always exist in some form or other ... e.g., 13.8 billion years ago it existed as a set of quantum fluctuations in an array of different fundamental/primordial energy fields which act as opposing forces to one-another and which on average cancel each other out completely (and actually there is a fairly simple mathematical proof of that, which has been published many times over more than 40 years now!) ... I have in fact explained all of that in some detail on this forum several times, but I am not going to waste even more time in this thread explaining to someone like you who simply refuses to understand or study the published science (there are in fact several papers from Alex Vilenkin and others, showing that you may not even need any initial vacuum-state energy, ie no “matter” at all, and you still inevitably get a vast array quantum fluctuations appearing, ie even when you seem to have no obvious precursor state at all!).

What you are doing here is simply to claim that because current science does not give an absolute full universally agreed explanation of exactly how the Big Bang occurred (though we have a 90% to 99% understanding/explanation of it already), you want to insert God into that tiny remaining gap in our knowledge. That's the same old idiotic God-of-the-Gaps argument that theists have been using for the last 2000+ years, and where every time science makes a new discovery and gives a new explanation its found that the answer has no such God there at all! … science has filled literally millions of such gaps, and so far the score is x-million gaps filled with entiely natural processes of chemistry, biology & physics, and zero gaps ever filled with an God!

 

[JayUtah]

Please read message 165. This is also an example of the prediction of modern science in the Qur'an.

First, you were asked to provide information from the Qur'an that would inform future scientific discovery -- the future from today, not the future from when the Qur'an was written. You continue either being unable to understand the challenge or being unable to meet it. Can you name a passage from the Qur'an that will predict a correct discovery science hasn't yet made?

Your post 165 is a perfect example of post hoc rationalization, not prediction. From modern science you learn the concept of the Big Bang: the eruption of the universe from a singularity. You weren't taught this by the Qur'an. The people who theorized the Big Bang didn't get the idea from the Qur'an. (They were, in fact, Christians.) This idea, as fully developed as we have it now, comes from modern physics textbooks. That's where you learned it; that's where the people who told it to you learned it.

With this information in mind -- and not until then -- you've gone back to the creation claims in the Qur'an and tried to interpret them to make them fit modern knowledge. In doing so, you've had to stretch your interpretations quite a bit to make them seem like they described complex modern subjects. The problem is that you've done so while already knowing what modern science has said.

This logical fallacy has a colloquial name in English: The Texas Sharpshooter's fallacy. More formally it is known as post hoc reasoning, where "post hoc" is Latin meaning "after the fact." The Texas Sharpshooter fallacy is a humorous parable that describes the error in reasoning. Imagine a man with a rifle who wants to prove he's an excellent marksman. He shoots his rifle at a blank wall. Then after he has fired, he walks up to the wall and draws targets on the wall around the bullet holes he has just made. The he tells everyone he is such a great marksman because he has hit all the targets. This is the same fallacy your argument uses to say the Qur'an predicted scientific outcomes.

You are biased and unfortunately ignore.

Your argument is not being rejected because your critics are biased. Your argument is not being ignored. Instead your critics are pointing out that your argument fails basic logic. You really have no idea what it means to prove something with evidence.

Of course, your knowledge is also very little in understanding the Qur'anic content and the history of religions. I have no advice for you.

No, you've provided no evidence that you are better educated in the history of religion or in the content of the Qur'an. You seem to be rather ignorant of religions besides your own. And your own exegesis of the Qur'an suggests you are merely steeped in one particular interpretational tradition to the exclusion of all others.

If all you're going to do in every post is call your critics ignorant, then you won't enjoy a very cordial reception.

 

[IanS]

Please read message 165. This is also an example of the prediction of modern science in the Qur'an. I have mentioned several examples before. You are biased and unfortunately ignore. Of course, your knowledge is also very little in understanding the Qur'anic content and the history of religions. I have no advice for you.

And by the way regarding the above piece of arrogant insistent nonsense of you criticising anyone here for not "understanding" the Quran - everyone here knows that the Quran is claiming the existence of an almighty supernatural creator God who was claimed to have been revealed to someone called Mohamed in the 7th century ; and that is all anyone needs to know in order to conclude that modern science shows how such ancient uneducated God beliefs are wrong and are in fact nothing more than exactly the same religious mythical superstitions which all religions had preached since thousands of years before the Quran and still preached and ignorantly believed thousands of years after the Quran.

The unarguable fact is that every known copy of the Quran was certainly written by mere human men of the time (about 650AD in the case of the Quran) … there is no copy ever written by a God … you do not have, and nobody has ever had, any such copy written by any God.

Your book of ancient uneducated religious faith, the Quran, is just like all the other much earlier books of almost identical religious claims, e.g. the Old Testament bible and the New Testament version of that bible … it's also just like all the even earlier writing about even earlier religions with the Gods of Egypt and gods that controlled the seas and others that controlled crops etc. … we do not need to read or study those writings to know that their claims of miracles and supernatural heavenly creatures are not merely wrong (as if a simple mistake from some faulty evidence/data), but simply the product of what at that time was worldwide monumental ignorance by today's standards …

… and when I say "education of today's standard” we are talking about what educated people have discovered through sheer hard work and dedication to finding the actual truth about the world around us. Today, now in our time, we call that “science”, but really it is just education. The reason that you continue to believe 2000 year-old ignorant superstitions and tales of miracles and the supernatural, is that, frankly, you are not properly or sufficiently educated to realise that what you have been brought-up (raised by your family and their churches/mosques) to believe, is something that no educated & honest objective person could possibly believe as credible at all now in the 21st century (and by educated, I repeat that I mean educated in current-day scientific knowledge … ie as opposed to education in anything else, such as for example Music or Economics or Politics, or anything like that, which is not at all actually an “Education” in the same sense that is provided by science – only scientific education can teach you why and how the world around us works and how all of that can be explained with evidence so vast and irrefutable that to deny it is actually an admission of deliberate and lazy wilful ignorance … which is exactly what you are showing here in every post that you make … you are in dire need of a proper education in objectivity and honesty ... though one small thing in your favour - you are not alone ; almsot all religious fanatics do exactly the same).

 

[heydarian saeed]

Well, the Bible which is older than the Qur’an, says the same thing, and that is also written by humans. So it is not a very difficult thing to claim.

It is quite another thing to prove that there is a god who could have inspired people to such writings, because people have very good imaginations.

Tell us, who created your god? If you think that nobody created him, then tell us how that can be so, and if you think that only god could not be created, then tell us why the universe needs a creator.

Hi
Dear philosopher, the proof of God is not within the scope of the tasks of science. Rather, it is the duty of philosophy and logic. In the first part of this topic, I have given 6 strong philosophical arguments to prove God. My philosophical approach and view is the originality of existence. Because the principle that is always eternal is "existence". Shapes, colors, sizes and volumes and everything that makes the appearance of things are always changing. and become What remains constant is the existence of things. And the origin of existence is God. The essence of existence is one God. You can find and read my full explanation on the proof of God's existence in the first thread.
Good luck

 

[heydarian saeed]

Dear fellow members, be careful; My reply messages to some messages will reply to many of you. I do not wish to repeat replies to your messages.

 

[JayUtah]

Dear philosopher, the proof of God is not within the scope of the tasks of science.

You admit you're not a scientist. And you've proved quite thoroughly that your understanding of science is fundamentally flawed. It is therefore not within your expertise to declare what is or is not the proper scope of science.

Rather, it is the duty of philosophy and logic.

Rather, lacking any sort of helpful method of proving the existence of your god to scientists -- such that your subsequent claims that what people claiming to be prophets of that god can offer as predictions of scientific fact will convince scientists -- you've cobbled up a pseudo-philosophical argument that you insist we must take seriously.

As to logic, you've committed enough common logical fallacies to convince us we should by no means trust your understanding of it.

In the first part of this topic, I have given 6 strong philosophical arguments to prove God.

And there followed 50 pages of rebuttals showing how your "philosophy" is unconvincing. We're not going to repeat that discussion here in the second part of the thread.

My philosophical approach and view is the originality of existence. Because the principle that is always eternal is "existence". Shapes, colors, sizes and volumes and everything that makes the appearance of things are always changing. and become What remains constant is the existence of things. And the origin of existence is God. The essence of existence is one God. You can find and read my full explanation on the proof of God's existence in the first thread.

Pseudo-philosophical gobbledy-gook. This is not science. It is not philosophy. It is not logic. It's not even theology. It's just a salad of profound-sounding words that signify nothing we can get a toehold on.

Good luck

We certainly need it. In the meantime, some specific rebuttals have been made to your specific posts in this thread. Please respond to them with something more substantial than vague insults suggesting all your critics are ignorant compared to you.

 

[heydarian saeed]

A singularity is not "nothingness." Nor would you have thought to make that comparison (as wrong as it is) unless someone had first given you the idea of a singularity. As I mentioned either in this thread or in the other Islam-as-science thread, you're simply reading (and misunderstanding) modern science and then trying to take credit for it after the fact by comically shoehorning your scripture into what you think science says.



Literally every prior religion makes those claims about its god(s) and the creation of the universe. You tell us we must be well versed in history -- especially the history of religions -- in order to appreciate your argument. It seems all you know is one specific slice of fundamentalist Islam. You're not the teacher here.



It's being made by a person about a deity. Further, you provide no evidence either for the existence of the deity or for the truthfulness of the claim. This is simply you preaching your religion. It's not a proof.



An illiterate bigot can invent a god as well as the next man, and ascribe to him -- without evidence -- all manner of magical power. You're literally unable to separate the claim from proof of the claim. If you start the discussion by saying the Qur'an must be true because it makes profound claims, then you're not really intellectually prepared to discuss your religion with those who aren't members of it.

Hello
no I do not agree with your thinking and words. The Qur'anic contents are the same reality and truth. The problem of you and most of the fellow members in this thread are two main things; 1. Despite the strong and definite proof of God's existence, you still do not believe in God. Because you are biased. 2. You will not believe that the contents of modern science were told in the Quran in the 7th century. And it has been discovered in the last two centuries. Even the end of the universe has only been theorized by scientists. But he has stated a firm rule in the Quran. And its speaker is only God.
I have no other advice for you. You have the right to choose the content. There is no obligation.

 

[Pixel42]

The problem for you, and only you, in this thread heydarian is that despite the complete absence of evidence, let alone proof, of your superstitious claims you still persist in believing them. Because you are brainwashed.

 

[JayUtah]

no I do not agree with your thinking and words.

I assumed you would disagree. However, you don't explain what's wrong with them, so there can be no intellectual progress until you increase your effort.

The Qur'anic contents are the same reality and truth.

I understand that you believe the Qur'an to contain true statements of divine origin. However, when trying to convince people who do not share that belief, you cannot use the purported truth of the Qur'an as a premise to an argument and expect people to accept it. You claim your arguments are based on sound logic. But proceeding from an unproven premise is an elementary error in logic. Your arguments are therefore not logically sound.

The problem of you and most of the fellow members in this thread are two main things; 1. Despite the strong and definite proof of God's existence, you still do not believe in God.

Correct, I do not believe in your god or any other god. That is because I have not been shown convincing evidence for the existence of any.

You suggest above that you have provided "philosophical" proofs. I assume those are the ones you now attempt to characterize as "strong and definite." The restatement or summary of that proof that you gave in this thread is neither strong nor definite. It's little more than empty religious rhetoric that goes no further than expressions of belief. You refer back to the proofs you provided in the first part of this thread. You were shown many reasons why those proofs were unconvincing, and you largely did not engage with those reasons.

Therefore my disbelief in your god is not a problem. It is the proper conclusion given the course of this conversation.

Because you are biased.

No. My disbelief in your god is solely due to the lack of convincing evidence. When you are given the reasons why your proofs fail to convince people, and you ignore those reasons, it is insulting to continue claiming that people remain unconvinced because of their bias. They remain unconvinced because of your unwillingness to rehabilitate your arguments in the face of sound refutations.

2. You will not believe that the contents of modern science were told in the Quran in the 7th century.

That is correct. And I have explained the reasons why I do not believe that. You seem either unwilling or unable to address those reasons, so there can be no further intellectual discussion until you change your approach. Again, this is not my problem.

And it has been discovered in the last two centuries.

Yes, that's the gist of the refutation. Everything you claim was foretold in the Qur'an as science has only been identified in the Qur'an after it was discovered by scientists, and then only by strained interpretations that most other Koranic¹ scholars dismiss. A minority of Muslims are clearly using a post hoc method of revisionism to pretend these things were foretold. I have explained at length how your religion and many others have tried to do the same thing with their scriptures. I have also explained why that method is logically unsound.

Even the end of the universe has only been theorized by scientists.

As has the beginning. These are interesting thought experiments, but they are difficult to test today. Fortunately, you claim that knowledge discovered in the interim -- in the so-called rational period of science (which has not concluded) -- was also foretold in the Qur'an. Unfortunately, all the examples you've presented are clearly post hoc revision and therefore have no evidentiary value. So please favor us with an item of interim science that we can reasonably expect to discover in our lifetime, which has not yet been discovered, but which can be testably and reliably inferred today from the Qur'an, before it is discovered.

But he has stated a firm rule in the Quran. And its speaker is only God.

Yes, the Qur'an -- and many other religious texts -- say what they think is going to happen at the end of the world. And all those other books claim the same divine authority. Unfortunately the end of the universe doesn't satisfy our need for a testable example.

I have no other advice for you. You have the right to choose the content. There is no obligation.

Yes, you clearly have little to say beyond expressions of your faith and disdain for what you insist is your critics' ignorance. There is little left to do but mock your inability to think about what your critics say.

____________________
¹ I use the noun "Qu'ran" as the most widely acceptable transliteration. I use the adjective "Koranic" because the word is an Anglicization in grammatical form, and therefore benefits from a more Anglic root.

 

[JayUtah]

Because you are brainwashed.

As harsh as it may sound, I don't find it possible to unironically say

And he has said this very huge and difficult claim. This claim must have been made by a being who dominates the entire universe.
* * *
And it is written in the book of the Qur'an. No way it can. No human being, not even all human beings throughout history, can ever say such words. This is a huge claim outside the scope of the universe and time. Only God alone can say.

without having only a tenuous working connection to an objective reality.

 

[Skeptic General]

The problem for you, and only you, in this thread heydarian is that despite the complete absence of evidence, let alone proof, of your superstitious claims you still persist in believing them. Because you are brainwashed.

The saddest thing in all this is not that he's brainwashed. These material that they try here on critical thinkers for their own gratification all came from Maurice Bucaille and have been being pumped in the entire Islamic world with a lot of funding behind it. Second and third generation of muslims are being brought up with these fabrications. Muslim schools in the West actually with tax prayers money are teaching these fabrications.

I admire the patience of the thinkers here, despite the insults and condescending attitude this guy(s) has been dishing out along with his superstitions and ignorance, they're seriously dissecting his claims. I'm glad this doesn't stop despite his ignoring his repeated defeat. You never know to whom he'd show these debates if he weren't properly and decisively answered..