• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

More TV vicar

dogbite666

Thinker
Joined
Jul 17, 2004
Messages
199
BBC 2 Tuesday 24th Jan 9pm Alternative Medicine.

Apparently they are going to show a woman in China having open heart surgery without any anesthetic, rather they use accupuncture to stem the pain! I saw the trailer for this and she sure looked like she was in pain to me, I can't wait for this.
 
The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means, and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. In order to do this, the patient has to have an endotracheal tube in place, and it is impossible to place such a tube unless the patient is anaesthetised, by which I mean unconscious to the point where the cough reflex is suppressed.

This trick is similar to the one showing a lady being sawn in half. The only difference is that nobody seriously expects the audience of the latter show really to believe that a lady has indeed been sawn in half.

Even where lesser claims are made for acupuncture anaesthesia, such as orthopaedic surgery being performed, it's still a case of "please ignore the man behind the curtain", or in this case the I/V drip which is of course only delivering saline, it couldn't possibly have any morphine in it, could it? Many Chinese statistics on acupuncture "anaesthesia" openly admit that other regular painkillers have been used in conjunction.

And finally, European surgeons used to do quite complex stuff before anaesthetics were discovered. The father of the Bronte sisters had surgery for cataracts, apparently quite successfully. J. S. Bach also had eye surgery shortly before he died in 1750. The amount of pain patients can soak up in that situation varies considerably but is often a surprising amount.

But anyway, open-chest surgery without intubation is just flat impossible.

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:
The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means, and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure. In order to do this, the patient has to have an endotracheal tube in place, and it is impossible to place such a tube unless the patient is anaesthetised, by which I mean unconscious to the point where the cough reflex is suppressed.

Indeed. I just looked up the presenter of this programme, Professor Kathy Sykes, you can view her credentials here:

http://www.bris.ac.uk/ias/collier/

I assume her position as Collier Chair of Public Engagement in Science and Engineering means she will be taking the skeptical view point. However, the trailer for this did seem to show Professor Sykes as accepting this claim. We shall see.
 
Indeed. I just looked up the presenter of this programme, Professor Kathy Sykes, you can view her credentials here:

http://www.bris.ac.uk/ias/collier/

I assume her position as Collier Chair of Public Engagement in Science and Engineering means she will be taking the skeptical view point. However, the trailer for this did seem to show Professor Sykes as accepting this claim. We shall see.

I've seen Kathy on "Rough Science". She's pretty good there. IIRC, she is a physicist. I'm interested to know how she treats this case. Keep us updated please!
 
I've just had a look at the Radio Times blurb for the programme and it does indeed seem to imply that Kathy becomes a convert. However, this could well be deliberately misleading in order to attract viewers. There's something about an MRI machine, and certainly it's hardly surprising if sticking needles in a patient makes bits of the brain light up, but unless someone has found a way of performing open-heart surgery without opening the chest, then the headline claim is simply bogus.

Rolfe.
 
I've just had a look at the Radio Times blurb for the programme and it does indeed seem to imply that Kathy becomes a convert. However, this could well be deliberately misleading in order to attract viewers. There's something about an MRI machine, and certainly it's hardly surprising if sticking needles in a patient makes bits of the brain light up, but unless someone has found a way of performing open-heart surgery without opening the chest, then the headline claim is simply bogus.

I agree. I remember when the Horizon programme took the JREF Challenge with a test for water memory as evidence for homeopathy. The trailer had a similar vein - 'The results will amaze you!' and pictures of Randi looking concerned. However, as we all know in the actual programme it failed the test and the pictures of randi looking concerned were just take outs of him coffing.

I wonder what other woo subjects they'll cover in this series, I hope the do one on homeopathy. :)
 
Mummymonkey's link to BBC article

"Professor Sykes said: "The pain matrix is involved in the perception of pain - it helps someone decide whether something is painful or not, so it could be that acupuncture in some ways changes a person's pain perception."

Uh, isn't this effect known more commonly by a word beginning with 'p'?
 
Modern 'keyhole' type surgeries mean you wouldn't get to see it, it's NOT open heart surgery merely 'heart surgery'.

however ...

Rolfe said:
The claim is in any case preposterous. To do open-heart surgery you have to open the chest. If you do that, the patient cannot breathe by the usual negative-pressure means,and will quickly die unless artificially ventilated with positive-pressure.

Although acupuncture anaesthesia is still widely used in China for craniotomy and thyroidectomy, it is not as frequently employed today for open heart operations in China as it was in the 1970s. The main reason is that the patients have to undergo lengthy preoperative training to practice slow and deep abdominal and diaphragmatic breathing required during the operation to overcome the positive atmospheric pressure in the event that the pleural cavity is inadvertently entered; another prerequisite is that the surgeons must be extremely gentle, meticulous, and speedy. Conventional anaesthesia obviates both of these requirements and is thus preferred by younger surgeons. http://heart.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/83/3/256
 
The BBC Two show will also feature heart surgery done using acupuncture instead of a general anaesthetic.

The patient is conscious during the operation in China, but she was given sedatives and a local anaesthetic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631930.stm
Sooo... if she was given a sedative and local anaesthetic, what was the acupuncture meant to be doing??

Also, the way the experiment with the needles and the brain scan is described, it seems that all they are proving is that deeper needles have a greater affect on the brain (whatever that affect might be) - I wonder if they did the same experiments on random points rather than acupuncture points to see if the same affects were observed?

I suppose I'll have to watch and see :confused:
 
Even if it WAS possible, I would prefer being completely under.....I really don't relish the idea of seeing someone messing arround with my innards like that.:faint:

Have you ever had this sort of surgery? After the right sedatives, you're lying there saying "ooooooh! neato! They just pulled out my artery! Cool!"

After the stuff wears off, that's a different story.
 
From Parade Magazine yesterday:

What the medical establishment considers to be false may in fact be right for some people. (I first realized this many years ago, when I witnessed open-heart surgery in China performed without any anesthesia except for an acupuncture needle in the patient’s ear—this at a time when doctors generally were convinced that acu-puncture was a sham.)
http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2006/edition_01-22-2006/Medical_Myths

Now, parade magazine isn't exactly a bastion of critical thinking, but I thought it appropriate for this thread. There's at least one medical doctor claiming to have witnessed such a thing.
 
I agree. I remember when the Horizon programme took the JREF Challenge with a test for water memory as evidence for homeopathy. The trailer had a similar vein - 'The results will amaze you!' and pictures of Randi looking concerned. However, as we all know in the actual programme it failed the test and the pictures of randi looking concerned were just take outs of him coffing.

The results were very clearly going against him initially. I have never ever ever seen anyone look so worried as Randi did at that moment. I cannot imagine anyone looking so worried and devastated even at the prospect of being executed the next morning. It certainly put paid to the claims often made by skeptics that he would be delighted to award the $1 million.
 
From Parade Magazine yesterday:

http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2006/edition_01-22-2006/Medical_Myths

Now, parade magazine isn't exactly a bastion of critical thinking, but I thought it appropriate for this thread. There's at least one medical doctor claiming to have witnessed such a thing.

A lot of these more dramatic demonstrations were faked, or the patient was given other painkillers, or the patient was just highly motivated not to scream. The article doesn't give a date, but Chairman Mao declared that acupuncture (Chinese folk medicine) was superior to modern medicine, just as traditional Chinese art/agriculture/whatever was superior to western versions.

Seems like Parade once published some pictures of a surgery that was shown to be a fake just from careful study of the pictures. Don't know if this is what they are talking about here.
 
Christine's right. This seems to be a common spectacle staged for visitors to China, to show how great their traditional cultural methods are. Now the BBC programme may be going to show something different, but there is a long history of fakery involved in this area.

Rolfe.
 
The results were very clearly going against him initially. I have never ever ever seen anyone look so worried as Randi did at that moment. I cannot imagine anyone looking so worried and devastated even at the prospect of being executed the next morning. It certainly put paid to the claims often made by skeptics that he would be delighted to award the $1 million.
Ian, Randi is a showman. He knows all there is to know about racking up tension. I don't think you can read anything at all into any facial expression he might choose to adopt.

Rolfe.
 
Christine's right. This seems to be a common spectacle staged for visitors to China, to show how great their traditional cultural methods are. Now the BBC programme may be going to show something different, but there is a long history of fakery involved in this area.

Rolfe.

Well, I certainly can't make any judgment on whether or not it was faked. If it was, it clearly fooled that MD.
 

Back
Top Bottom