Jordan Peterson Event Report

[angrysoba]

Is there such a thing as toxic femininity?

There could well be. I would say there are definitely modes of behaviour which are more typically expressed by women than men that are clearly pretty destructive. What do you think?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Long, long, since.
Mech didn't actually formulate the "theory", it was common belief for years before him, and has been trying to have his outmoded book (early '70s) taken out of print due to the inaccuracies but it makes money for the publisher still.....

Basically anyone who spouts this nonsense today is outing themself as an idiot.

There's also something... ironic, to say the least, about people watching videos and reading tutorials by someone else on how to be an alpha male. Methinks they kinda missed how the "alpha" part is supposed to work

 

[angrysoba]

I wish there was a kudos system for posts because while I've nothing to add to this post I do want to thank you for it.

Thanks!

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh, at this point "incel" IS at this point just a generic insult by butthurt fanboys on Twitter. Same as "fascist" (or "socialist" or "pedophile" or "groomer" for the right-wingnuts) and a few others. You can literally find more examples of stuff like a father of 4 being called an "incel" by the Twitter gang than it being actually used correctly.

Not that long ago we had someone on this very forum refer to Elon Musk, who has nine children, as an incel.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Not that long ago we had someone on this very forum refer to Elon Musk, who has nine children, as an incel.

"Incel" means "involuntarily celibate", it doesn't mean "involuntary virgin". One could have nine offspring and then be celibate, involuntarily. Although it does seem exceedingly unlikely that a millionaire, much less a billionaire, would ever be involuntarily celibate for very long.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Nevertheless, the last three of Elon Musk's children are from 2021, from two different mothers. It seems, shall we say, unlikely that that would happen while he were celibate, regardless of whether it was voluntary or not. He's not the Holy Spirit, is all I'm saying

Never mind the pretty public record of who he was dating and when.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

That may not be their primary focus, but it's absolutely part of the document. You're kidding if you think that there isn't a judgment being made here about "masculinity ideology".

Uh... "ideology" or rather "masculinities" there is just what people think they need to think and do to be a Manly Man (TM). No more, no less. So only in as much as that "ideology" makes someone want to suck on their Manly Man .45 (TM) because they think they failed to be a Mainly Man (TM).

If you actually think that the APA actually cares about pushing a leftist ideology, you've just drunk deep and greedily of the dumb kool-aid.

That's all well and good. And if you paid close attention, I never claimed that everything about the APA was bad, or even that it was badly motivated. But this isn't all they're trying to do, not by a long shot. Preaching to this hypothetical client that he's got white male privilege isn't going to help him. Trying to get him to be an "ally" for leftist causes won't cure his depression.

Except, again, nowhere in there it's about "male privilege", but rather about male sources of stress. Nor about getting him to be an ally of any leftist cause, but just how to deal with his stress sources.

Seriously, just like you'd presumably advise someone to actually read what the <flippin> GR says instead of drawing his conclusions from Pixie Of Key mis-representation, I urge you to read the entirety of that actual APA guideline document instead of just assuming what it's about based on what butthurt Peterson flailed about.

And ignoring how often factors like fatherlessness play into these pathologies isn't going to lead to better clinical outcomes. The guidelines have problems, and you haven't actually addressed a single one of them.

Except if you actually read the <flippin> guidelines instead of doing the idiotic knee-jerk BS of making BS up to defend Peterson, you'd see that it actually deals with the issue of fathers. In fact, it has a whole <bleep>ing chapter about father involvement. Seriously, read and comprehend the damn thing if you want to critique it, same as you'd presumably tell anyone who wants to critique GR. Fer fork's sake...

You've just said that one aspect of the guidelines is well intentioned, but I never claimed otherwise.

No. Not even close. I'm actually saying you have no <bleep>ing clue what it's even about, or what its purpose even is. Read the damn thing instead of just trusting that Peterson has a point.

But let's look at this a bit more. One of the aspects of "masculinity ideology" that was cited was achievement. Well, that IS a good thing, isn't it? Not necessarily any particular expectation for it, but achievement itself is a good thing (with the obvious requirement that you're achieving something worthwhile, like a successful career, etc). And achieving more will actually make most people feel better. Unrealistic expectations are bad, absolutely, but if you've actually paid attention to Peterson, he's never been about setting unrealistic expectations. The whole "make your bed" thing is precisely about setting expectations low, so you can actually meet them.

Then basically WTH is even your problem with the APA guidelines, since they make it amply clear that that's their only concern and problem: people making it into a source of stress if they don't achieve what they think is expected of them. Oh right, you haven't actually read those APA guidelines, nor Peterson's response to it which is just a petulant man-child "yeah, well, you're a poopy-head" nonsense, you just assume you must defend the alt-right dumbass.

If you try to convince people that they don't need to achieve, you might make them feel better in the moment, but when they realize that the world isn't so accommodating to failure, they'll realize that advice is bull ****. Unsuccessful males don't need to be told that it's perfectly fine to be a failure.

As far as a psychiatrist is concerned, they just need to be told whatever it takes to keep them from sucking on their Many Man (TM) .45 like a Manly Man (TM). That's all. And sometimes that involves realizing that nah, it's ok to do your best, even if you don't end up the next Elon Musk, especially when your deck is stacked against you.

Much as the alt-right seems to prefer a world where it's like in old cowboy movies: the unsuccessful male just leans on a cactus, pulls his sombrero over his eyes, and dies, without them needing to pay for a pauper, <insert slur for blacks>, or <insert slur for latins>.

They need help in succeeding, because the world is cruel to failures, and as much as we might wish it were otherwise, it isn't. And treating "achievement" as part of this "masculinity ideology" that's just hurting them, as if they should abandon attempts to achieve, isn't actually any form of kindness.

And that's just not a <bleep>ing psychiatrist's job. He doesn't know what to do to succeed as an anal strapon fitter. Nor is it his job to teach you that. His job is to keep you from sucking on a shotgun, at the very least. Even if it involves telling you that, yeah, no, that market is saturated, and you're discriminated against if you want to take a loan to make that kind of a company, so set your expectations more realistically and stop measuring yourself against a standard that doesn't exist anywhere in the actual reality.

 

[Samson]

Jordan Peterson is unsuspended from Twitter, so is again able to counter the promotion of female butchery by Elliot Page.

 

[catsmate]

Jordan Peterson is unsuspended from Twitter, so is again able to counter the promotion of female butchery by Elliot Page.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Darat]

What is that supposed to mean?

Presumably that folk aren’t meant to have autonomy over themselves when they make a decision Samson doesn’t support.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

What is that supposed to mean?

People are free to spout hate speech again.

 

[Craig4]

With such creatures, I like this I like to apply the "Little Miss Sunshine" test. This is derived from the movie by the same name. In it, there's a subplot of the father of the family trying to sell his self-help, secrets to success book while it's obvious he's an abject failure in every aspect of his own life. If your only real success is writing a book about being successful, sorry, not interested.

This guy wasn't an abject failure prior to writing books and turning himself into a dumpster fire. Still there's nothing about him that demonstrates a level of per-dumpster fire success that makes want his advice.

 

[catsmate]

With such creatures, I like this I like to apply the "Little Miss Sunshine" test. This is derived from the movie by the same name. In it, there's a subplot of the father of the family trying to sell his self-help, secrets to success book while it's obvious he's an abject failure in every aspect of his own life. If your only real success is writing a book about being successful, sorry, not interested.

This guy wasn't an abject failure prior to writing books and turning himself into a dumpster fire. Still there's nothing about him that demonstrates a level of per-dumpster fire success that makes want his advice.

Don't forget the drug addiction and "cure".

 

[Samson]

Presumably that folk aren’t meant to have autonomy over themselves when they make a decision Samson doesn’t support.

Or that Peterson believes parading a successful transition influences others.
Meaningful success is infrequent he may argue, so he can influence people to not blindly follow.

 

[Ziggurat]

Uh... "ideology" or rather "masculinities" there is just what people think they need to think and do to be a Manly Man (TM). No more, no less. So only in as much as that "ideology" makes someone want to suck on their Manly Man .45 (TM) because they think they failed to be a Mainly Man (TM).

"Achievement" is listed as part of this. A failure to achieve might make some people want to commit suicide, but what exactly is the alternative? Tell people not to succeed? You don't need an ideology for people to notice that achievement is attractive. You don't need indoctrination to notice that women choose men who achieve something, and ignore men who don't.

If you actually think that the APA actually cares about pushing a leftist ideology, you've just drunk deep and greedily of the dumb kool-aid.

If you don't think that, then you didn't read their guidelines.

Except, again, nowhere in there it's about "male privilege", but rather about male sources of stress. Nor about getting him to be an ally of any leftist cause, but just how to deal with his stress sources.

You are wrong. Let me quote:

When working with boys and men, psychologists can address issues of privilege and power related to sexism in a developmentally appropriate way to help them obtain the knowledge, attitudes, and skills to be effective allies and potentially live less restrictive lives​

They are explicitly calling for psychologists to turn men into "allies", and that is absolutely in the leftist ideological sense.

Seriously, just like you'd presumably advise someone to actually read what the <flippin> GR says instead of drawing his conclusions from Pixie Of Key mis-representation, I urge you to read the entirety of that actual APA guideline document instead of just assuming what it's about based on what butthurt Peterson flailed about.

Evidently I read more than you, since you apparently missed the bit about being an ally.

Except if you actually read the <flippin> guidelines instead of doing the idiotic knee-jerk BS of making BS up to defend Peterson, you'd see that it actually deals with the issue of fathers. In fact, it has a whole <bleep>ing chapter about father involvement. Seriously, read and comprehend the damn thing if you want to critique it, same as you'd presumably tell anyone who wants to critique GR. Fer fork's sake...

I know it has a section on fathers. I explicitly said so, which makes me wonder if you even read my post. I don't know how you could have read both my post and the APA guidelines, because you didn't actually address my criticism: the section on fathers is about the benefits to the patient of being an engaged father. Which is true enough, but again, it doesn't even touch on repairing the damage to men who grew up without a father.

No. Not even close. I'm actually saying you have no <bleep>ing clue what it's even about, or what its purpose even is. Read the damn thing instead of just trusting that Peterson has a point.

The irony is that while you assume I'm arguing against a straw man version of what's in the guidelines, you don't understand them OR my own posts yourself.

Then basically WTH is even your problem with the APA guidelines, since they make it amply clear that that's their only concern and problem: people making it into a source of stress if they don't achieve what they think is expected of them.

First, this is plainly wrong, they're pushing more than just that. Second, the problem with the APA guidelines is that it's not actually going to be helpful. Good intentions don't suffice. It's fine to want to reduce stress, but their advice isn't fundamentally any different than "suck it up".

Oh right, you haven't actually read those APA guidelines, nor Peterson's response to it

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat this accusation, you still have failed to address the substance of both what I said and what Peterson said.

As far as a psychiatrist is concerned, they just need to be told whatever it takes to keep them from sucking on their Many Man (TM) .45 like a Manly Man (TM). That's all.

Wow. This is completely ******* bonkers. No, that is NOT all, not by a god damn ******* MILE. If your only marker for success is that the patient hasn't committed suicide, you shouldn't even be in the field. Preventing suicide is only ONE part of the job of any decent psychologist. Most patients are not even at risk of suicide. By your metric, it doesn't even matter what you do with them. That's bull ****. Psychologists are supposed to help people in a lot more ways than that.

And sometimes that involves realizing that nah, it's ok to do your best, even if you don't end up the next Elon Musk, especially when your deck is stacked against you.

That is only part of what the APA is saying, and it's not the part that anyone is objecting to.

Much as the alt-right seems to prefer a world where it's like in old cowboy movies: the unsuccessful male just leans on a cactus, pulls his sombrero over his eyes, and dies, without them needing to pay for a pauper, <insert slur for blacks>, or <insert slur for latins>.

If you think this is Peterson's message, you haven't been paying any ******* attention at all. You should be embarrassed. And that message isn't coming from the alt-right, it's coming from the left. Not the APA, granted, but it's absolutely coming from people like Olivia Wilde.

 

[catsmate]

Or that Peterson believes parading a successful transition influences others.
Meaningful success is infrequent he may argue, so he can influence people to not blindly follow.

I see you haven't bothered to answer my question.

 

[Samson]

I see you haven't bothered to answer my question.

Elliot Page had surgery that seems to work and work for he/she/them.
Peterson no doubt argues this is an unusually good outcome and recommends do not try it yourself.
Thus freedom of speech and the unbanning.

 

[Checkmite]

What is that supposed to mean?

Elliot Page is a transgender man who had his breasts surgically removed. For some reason, Jordan Peterson is highly incensed about him in particular, refuses to call Page by his post-transition name, and has histrionically called for the doctor who performed this voluntary procedure on Page at Page's own request to be imprisoned.

 

[cosmicaug]

"Achievement" is listed as part of this. A failure to achieve might make some people want to commit suicide, but what exactly is the alternative? Tell people not to succeed? You don't need an ideology for people to notice that achievement is attractive. You don't need indoctrination to notice that women choose men who achieve something, and ignore men who don't.

To suggest achievement is "masculine" (which seems to be the implicit subtext here) seems a pretty bizarre, ideological stance.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Or that Peterson believes parading a successful transition influences others.
Meaningful success is infrequent he may argue, so he can influence people to not blindly follow.

I thought Peterson's whole thing was that the doctor who performed the surgery was the baddie here, and not Page?