Electric universe theories here.

[Steve]

Now that’s a witty reply.

Plasma is a fluid in your definition, so...

Yes plasma is a fluid, as are all gases and liquids. The fact that you are boggled by this shows that you have much difficulty with really basic science.

 

[Sol88]

Yes plasma is a fluid, as are all gases and liquids. The fact that you are boggled by this shows that you have much difficulty with really basic science.

Throw plasma “special” properties in the mix and model plasma as a fluid.

Yes, we agree, plasma can flow like a fluid.

Much like in astrophysical jets...

6.1. Towards a Working Model of AGN Jets

Relativistic jets are the conduits that connect supermassive, spinning black holes and their attendant disks to their host galaxies and the universe beyond.

Conduits of a “fluid” in this case charged particles, a plasma not a gas, is an electric current.

Understanding the content, power, electrical current and duty cycles of AGN jets will help quantify their role in galaxy formation and evolutio

 

[Sol88]

When you model said electric currents using fluid equations, you find surprises.

How does a current forming instability, Kink instability, form if there is no electric current?

What drives this electric current? What is the size of the curcuit this current flows in? Where does the energy come from to do this acceleration of charged particles?

This is most important when the host galaxies reside in a rich galaxy cluster. Jets can have a more immediate effect by stimulating star formation as is sometimes seen in some galaxies and, more impressively, by triggering the formation of new galaxies as the jets can propagate several Mpc away from their hosts. Jets also accelerate high energy cosmic rays and quite plausibly may account for a large fraction of the universal spectrum above the “knee” in the spectrum. They may also be responsible for most of the intergalactic magnetic field.

Seems important, from a cosmological perspective...

 

[Sol88]

Yes plasma is a fluid, as are all gases and liquids. The fact that you are boggled by this shows that you have much difficulty with really basic science.

A brief explanation for you, Steve.

Importance of kinetic effects[edit]
Another limitation of MHD (and fluid theories in general) is that they depend on the assumption that the plasma is strongly collisional (this is the first criterion listed above), so that the time scale of collisions is shorter than the other characteristic times in the system, and the particle distributions are Maxwellian.

This is usually not the case in fusion, space and astrophysical plasmas.

When this is not the case, or the interest is in smaller spatial scales, it may be necessary to use a kinetic model which properly accounts for the non-Maxwellian shape of the distribution function. However, because MHD is relatively simple and captures many of the important properties of plasma dynamics it is often qualitatively accurate and is therefore often the first model tried.

Effects which are essentially kinetic and not captured by fluid models include double layers, Landau damping, a wide range of instabilities, chemical separation in space plasmas and electron runaway.

In the case of ultra-high intensity laser interactions, the incredibly short timescales of energy deposition mean that hydrodynamic codes fail to capture the essential physics.

wiki.

Effects which are essentially kinetic and not captured by fluid models = Very important.

So, why are you still using your gas is a plasma fluid model?

Seems backward to me but I’m no mathamagician!

Really seems to be mathamagicians hate plasma. To complex to compute.

 

[Sol88]

For certain some one far more clever’r than I, knows quire a fair bit on all the flavours of MHD.

Do you think if Blandford has referenced Don Scott’s statement of Inclusion of plasma into simulations has yielded somewhat better results the mystery of jets n knots maybe one step closer?

 

[Sol88]

How the electric plasma universe creates galaxies and stars

With the newly developed multidimensional particle‐in‐cell computer software which follows the evolution of hundreds of thousands to millions of particles and photons (see Box), Peratt was able to demonstrate that galaxies, or groups of galaxies, are created when two or more galactic‐scale field‐aligned Birkeland currents interact.

Currents moving in the same direction attract one another with an attractive force proportional to the inverse of their separation distance, (take note: it is much stronger than the usual inverse square of separation distance of gravitational attraction).

The two Birkeland currents are detected as radio lobes due to synchrotron radiation (electromagnetic radiation emitted by relativistic or ultra‐relativistic accelerated electrons gyrating in a magnetic field). A good summary of the simulations (and beyond) is given by Tom Wilson from the Electric Universe perspective [7], which is reproduced below.

Good insights for you Steve, steenkh...you can even check the math I guess newly developed multidimensional particle‐in‐cell computer software

Knock yourselves out!

 

[Sol88]

1.1.1 Definition

Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) (magnetofluid dynamics or hydromagnetics) is the study of the dynamics of electrically conducting fluids. Examples of such fluids include plasmas, liquid metals, and salt water or electrolytes. The word magnetohydrodynamic is derived from magneto- meaning magnetic field, hydro- meaning liquid, and -dynamic meaning movement.

Not gas?

 

[Sol88]

Really boils down to the crux of the matter.

Do you believe in electric currents in space doing stuff?

 

[steenkh]

Still a lot of posts from Sol88 but not a single one showing that plasma is not a gas, though he seems reluctantly to admit that plasma is a fluid - like gas.

And there is no sign of him ever wanting to reply to Hans’ questions. Perhaps he also reluctantly accepts that he can’t, because there is no EU theory that is not easily discredited.

So all we are left with is Sol88’s perceived failings of real science.

 

[The Man]

Not just your limited understanding, my friend. Mainstream seem to struggle with two things regarding “space gas”.

Charge seperation and current flow (a curcuit is required).

BH’s, with one assumes is molecular GAS, thru varies means produces, according to Roger Blandford1, David Meier2, and Anthony Readhead3 . (mainstream) a high voltage.

Jets appear from their observations to be glowing, lossy coaxial “power cables”.

Charge seperation always gets the thread going...

Sorry, been busy remolding our bathroom.

Also sorry but I am not your friend and the limited understanding displayed above appears to be simply yours. The mainstream understanding is based on observation which, as far as I know, is that such jets are generally neutral (contain both positive and negative charges to the same degree).

Story of basically the key difference from bigbangers (gravity centric) mob and the electromagnetic (plasma(not GAS)) mob.

We say it’s all about charge seperation and the flow of currents, you say NO.

Did you even read the paper?

Read what paper? No paper was linked in the post I responded to or even in your post here.

Again what I said was " the jets are electrically neutral (contain the same number of positive as well as negative charges overall). Since there is no net charge through a point, plane volume or whatever over time it wouldn't classify as a current. Perhaps within some very specific and limited constraints of time and space but only for that as the charge imbalance is not maintained.”

Blandford seems to have changed their viewpoint, maybe you mob should.

Or are you incapable of a discussion of a mainstream peer reviewed scientific paper?

Do you or Blandford even know how coaxial cables function?

 

[The Man]

I’ll see your intermolecular forces and raise you electric fields!

Just what do you think those intermolecular forces are? They include the electromagnetic interaction between atoms and molecules.

You can't "raise" by simply calling.

And it seems astrophysical jets!

Gas as fluids when we are actually talking a completely different state of matter, kiddie stuff. Plasma and non-neutral ones at that.

Fluid isn't a particular state of matter, as already explained and exemplified, so different states of matter can be fluid.

The definition of a plasma in no way specifies non-neutrality but simply a certain lack of some electromagnetically bound states between charges.

Are astrophysical jets gas containers governed by intermolecular forces or a plasma (charges seperated and current conducting)?

As per observations.

Again, that such intermolecular forces tend to be weak, under the conditions involved, is what makes a gas (including plasma) a gas.

What makes a plasma a subset of a gas is that in addition to intermolecular forces some intramolecular as well as atomic bonding forces are also weaker than other forces under the conditions involved. So not only are some molecules disassociated from each other but some atoms are as well and some electrons disassociated from their atoms. However, since positive ions showing spectral lines are observed in such jets, not all electrons are so disassociated from their atoms.

 

[tusenfem]

Look sport, I’m not sure you can quite put the right shapes in the right holes. Let me help.

Electric Universe Link

Oh dear, a "paper" that uses Peratt's totally refuted numerical calculations about galaxy formation.
Tom Bridgeman ...

 

[The Man]

Do you actually understand what a METAPHORE is?

Yep, that's the only way "coaxial cables" works in what was quoted, as a metaphor.

 

[Sol88]

Yep, that's the only way "coaxial cables" works in what was quoted, as a metaphor.

Coaxial cable is a type of transmission line, used to carry high-frequency electrical signals with low losses

wiki

Metaphor for ...

Understanding the content, power, electrical current and duty cycles of AGN jets will help quantify their role in galaxy formation and evolution.

Electrical current.

Coaxial cable, or coax (pronounced /ˈkoʊ.æks/) is a type of electrical cable consisting of an inner conductor surrounded by a concentric conducting shield, with the two separated by a dielectric (insulating material); many coaxial cables also have a protective outer sheath or jacket. The term coaxial refers to the inner conductor and the outer shield sharing a geometric axis.

wiki

From Don Scott on FAC’s

. The angle of pitch of the helix variess moothly and con- tinuously with increasing radial distance, r, from the central axis of the current out as far as the plasma’s current-carrying charge density extends. This causes cyclical reversals of direction (counter-flows) in both the axial and azimuthal magnetic field and its collinear current density. The magnitude of both the B and j- fields may be greater than zero for r values far beyond the first zero of J0(αr) (which occurs at r = 2.4048/α). Figure 6 is shown to be correct but incomplete, and thus potentially misleading.

Analogous to a coaxial cable, current carrying.

And another way to say it would be in a metaphor, unless you thought Blandford was referencing an actual coaxial cable?

So regardless, you are faced with an electric current.

Needs a curcuit to make the show go...

 

[Sol88]

Oh dear, a "paper" that uses Peratt's totally refuted numerical calculations about galaxy formation.
Tom Bridgeman ...

Let’s drag the toilet paper that is the Bridgman “debunking” of galaxy formation due to Electromagnetic effects.

Blandford et al reckon...

Jets can have a major influence on their environments, stimulating and limiting the growth of galaxies.

What would me ‘ol mate Tom reckon on Blandford think electric currents have a major influence on galaxies.

Should we give a go, tusenfem.

Run Tom’s bit of fluff past Blandford et al outrageous claims n electric currents n galaxies?

 

[Sol88]

Sorry, been busy remolding our bathroom.

Also sorry but I am not your friend and the limited understanding displayed above appears to be simply yours. The mainstream understanding is based on observation which, as far as I know, is that such jets are generally neutral (contain both positive and negative charges to the same degree).



Read what paper? No paper was linked in the post I responded to or even in your post here.

Again what I said was " the jets are electrically neutral (contain the same number of positive as well as negative charges overall). Since there is no net charge through a point, plane volume or whatever over time it wouldn't classify as a current. Perhaps within some very specific and limited constraints of time and space but only for that as the charge imbalance is not maintained.”



Do you or Blandford even know how coaxial cables function?

Did you miss the post where tusenfem set you straight? It’s not about the amps baby it’s all about the density of the electric current in astrophysical plasma’s.

The jet is an electric current and it requires a curcuit. You seem to struggle with this mainstream fact of plasma physics?

Puzzling to say the least.

Good luck with putting the mold back in your bathroom.

 

[Sol88]

4.1. Particle Acceleration
4.1.1. General Principles. Jets, and the double radio sources that they supply, are observed throughout much of the entire seventy octave electromagnetic spectrum and, perhaps, be- yond. E

A charged particle gains energy at a rate eEc when exposed to a electric field of strength


E. If the field varies slowly, the acceleration is called electrostatic. This is likely to occur in black hole magnetospheres where charged particles must be created continuously and electrostatic gaps are thought to be involved, though they are likely to be energetically insignificant as the potential difference needed is orders of magnitude smaller than the total available (Levinson & Segev 2017; Chen et al. 2018). Similar structures have been invoked in the black hole jet and may be mandated as the density of charge carriers continues to be inadequate to deliver the current density and space charged required by Maxwell’s equations.

4.2.2.4. Plasma Waves.

Shocks and magnetic discontinuities can produce large current densities which may radiate large amplitude plasma modes which may, in turn, mode- convert into electromagnetic radio waves as seen in solar radio bursts.

Blandford

So jets are not an electric current?

 

[The Man]

wiki

Metaphor for ...

Electrical current.


wiki

From Don Scott on FAC’s



Analogous to a coaxial cable, current carrying.

And another way to say it would be in a metaphor, unless you thought Blandford was referencing an actual coaxial cable?

So regardless, you are faced with an electric current.

Needs a curcuit to make the show go...

No I didn't think "Blandford was referencing an actual coaxial cable" that's why I said the only way it works is as a metaphor. In an actual coaxial cable negative charges would move one direction while positive charges moved the opposite direction.

 

[The Man]

Did you miss the post where tusenfem set you straight? It’s not about the amps baby it’s all about the density of the electric current in astrophysical plasma’s.

tusenfem didn't address anything I said or myself, but did address you specifically and repeatedly. Of course it is about the amps, because current density is amps per unit area. Again that such density is low means the jet is general neutral.

Did you miss where tusenfem had pointed out current density before?

The jet is an electric current and it requires a curcuit. You seem to struggle with this mainstream fact of plasma physics?

Puzzling to say the least.

I'm not struggling.

Good luck with putting the mold back in your bathroom.

No mold, only molding.

 

[Sol88]

No I didn't think "Blandford was referencing an actual coaxial cable" that's why I said the only it works is as a metaphor. In an actual coaxial cable negative charges would move one direction while positive charges moved the opposite direction.

You got it!

We show that:

1) both the axial and azimuthal magnetic and current density components cyclically reverse their directions with radial distance from the central axis of the current;

2) the magnetic field extends farther from the central axis within a force-free field than it would if produced by a current in a long straight conductor. The total magnetic field magnitude and current density are shown to vary inversely as the square root of r. For large r, outside the plasma, the azimuthal magnetic field is shown to vary as 1/r. These results are shown to be consistent with laboratory and astronomical observations.

Don Scott

Possible in your physics?

A force free field aligned current... majic stuff for a neutral pressure jet to have.