• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 31

Status
Not open for further replies.
Face the real world. Whilst 'the kids' might have got their sentences scrapped, the facts legal errors and flaws remain of what the merits trial found. This is what remains on the Public Records for people to look up in a hundred years time, not the clap trap about 'she was at her boyfriends house all night'.


Face up to it.

Fixed your statement above.

1. The Massei court motivation report and verdict remain as a record of a miscariage of justice, full of legal flaws: violations of Italian law and international law. It was quashed by an Italian appeals court (Hellmann court).

2. The final definitive judgment on the murder/rape charges against Knox and Sollecito remain that of the Marasca CSC panel. Your (or anyone's) inability or desire not to read and comprehend the text of that judgment is your (or anyone's) own issue and apparently can't be overcome by logical argument based on a fair reading of its text. As pointed out in that text, the alleged evidence of the guilt of Knox and Sollecito was not credible evidence and/or was contradictory evidence. Under Italian law, a judgment of guilt must be based upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt (CPP Article 533). Therefore, Knox and Sollecito were finally and definitively acquitted of the murder/rape charges.
 
Last edited:
These are findings of fact that come out of the weighing of evidence at the merits trial during which all parties were given the opportunity to present their case in front of legal experts in the form of a panel of judges, lay judges and a panel of jury members randomly selected from the public. These are the facts after a lengthy fair trial and the facts found beyond a reasonable doubt in perpetuity in the National Archives of Italy's legal documents.


People won't be looking up what TomG of ISF had to say in a chat forum.

Vixen argues both sides had the opportunity to present their case. The issue was the prosecution didn't have a case. The prosecution's case should be based on actual evidence and not the sordid fantasies of a nut job prosecutor like Mignini.
 
These are findings of fact that come out of the weighing of evidence at the merits trial during which all parties were given the opportunity to present their case in front of legal experts in the form of a panel of judges, lay judges and a panel of jury members randomly selected from the public. These are the facts after a lengthy fair trial and the facts found beyond a reasonable doubt in perpetuity in the National Archives of Italy's legal documents.


People won't be looking up what TomG of ISF had to say in a chat forum.

Vixen argues both sides had the opportunity to present their case. The issue was the prosecution didn't have a case. The prosecution's case should be based on actual evidence and not the sordid fantasies of a nut job prosecutor like Mignini.

Welshman, I agree with your statement.

However, I would like to point out several other issues, some of which are embodied (by false or misleading statements) in Vixen's quoted post.

Vixen's post shows an ignorance or rejection of Italian law and international law.

1. The so-called "findings of fact" referred to by Vixen are merely inferences of a court. These inferences were unlawfully derived, because they did not follow Italian law CPP Article 192, paragraph 2, and other Italian laws. This was pointed out by the Hellmann appeals court and the Marasca CSC panel judgment, the latter being the final acquittal of Knox and Sollecito on the murder/rape charges.

2. The provisional guilty verdict against Knox and Sollecito by the Massei and Nencini courts violated Italian law (CPP Article 533) and - since they were not fair trials - international law (Convention Article 6).

3. Vixen misstates the composition of the judges in the Italian assize court (that is, the Massei, Hellmann, and Nencini courts). The judges for the trial consist only of two professional judges (giudici togati) and one panel of lay "judges" (giudici popolari), selected from the public. Contrary to VIxen's statement, there is no third body such as a jury selected from the public. The lay judges do not act as a jury would in the US or UK; they meet with the two professional judges to form a supposed majority opinion. No dissenting opinions are recorded.

See, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corte_d'Assise

4. The trials of Knox and Sollecito were lengthy, as trials in Italy tend to be, since typically an Italian court meets only a few days each week for any trial, and there tends to be extraneous testimony compared to typical US or UK criminal trials. The lengths of Italian trials are considered excessive compared to European standards; Italy has been promised 200 billion euros in grants and loans by the European Commission to reform its judicial system, including lengths of trials. Some progress has been reported in 2022.

See: https://www.ansa.it/english/news/20...try_23c42590-327c-4640-8246-cb440c98ca37.html

5. The findings of fact (inferences) in the Massei trial were based on arbitrary judgment of probabilities and in the Nencini trial by arbitrary reasoning, contrary to Italian law. The Massei court verdict was quashed by the Hellmann appeals court judgment explicitly because it failed to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The many legal errors of the Nencini appeals court in its judgment were pointed out in the Marasca CSC panel judgment.

6. As to where the Massei, Chieffi, and Nencini judgments will reside, no doubt all Italian court judgments are maintained in Italian archives, but like all miscarriages of justice, there will no doubt be a special place for them in infamy.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#Italy
 
Last edited:
Welshman, I agree with your statement.

However, I would like to point out several other issues, some of which are embodied (by false or misleading statements) in Vixen's quoted post.

Vixen's post shows an ignorance or rejection of Italian law and international law.

1. The so-called "findings of fact" referred to by Vixen are merely inferences of a court. These inferences were unlawfully derived, because they did not follow Italian law CPP Article 192, paragraph 2, and other Italian laws. This was pointed out by the Hellmann appeals court and the Marasca CSC panel judgment, the latter being the final acquittal of Knox and Sollecito on the murder/rape charges.

2. The provisional guilty verdict against Knox and Sollecito by the Massei and Nencini courts violated Italian law (CPP Article 533) and - since they were not fair trials - international law (Convention Article 6).

....

One issue with the Knox - Sollecito case for those of us who don't know Italian has been that the court judgments as well as the laws are originally in Italian.

For the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure, the list of procedural law relating to criminal investigations and trials, there is a book with an English translation which may or may not be readily available:

https://wordstodeeds.com/2018/02/23...alian-code-of-criminal-procedure-2nd-edition/

(I purchased the 2014 first edition some time ago; a second edition [updated with new laws and changes] has since been published.)

However, there is now an online "informal" English translation made available by an Italian law firm, headed by Nicola Canestrini:

https://canestrinilex.com/assets/Up...-Code-of-Criminal-Procedure-canestriniLex.pdf

Thus, English speakers can readily find online a translation of, for example, CPP Article 192.

Another Italian law firm, Brocardi, provides the CPP (and other Italian law codes) online including explanations and a selection of relevant CSC jurisprudence (roughly the equivalent of "precedent"), but in Italian:

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-di-procedura-penale/
 
Last edited:
Only in Hollywood America that fantasises about a 'feelgood' ending, with those pesky foreigners taught a lesson.

This is a confusing post. Since it was the Italian Supreme Court which annuled the convictions of AK and RS, which 'foreigners' were the ISC trying to teach a lesson?
 
In 100 years, they'll look at the MB report and go, "the lower courts should never have convicted, not on the 'evidence' they had before them. Only one of the merits courts got it right."

Only in Hollywood America that fantasises about a 'feelgood' ending, with those pesky foreigners taught a lesson.

This is a confusing post. Since it was the Italian Supreme Court which annuled the convictions of AK and RS, which 'foreigners' were the ISC trying to teach a lesson?

Bill Williams, I agree with you that this post from Vixen is confusing.

The questions I perceive are 1) who are the foreigners, 2) who was teaching the lesson, 3) what was the lesson, and 4) how was the lesson taught?

I also looked online for Hollywood America to try to understand that reference and found that there's a course at Harvard U Summer School called "American Dreams Made in Hollywood and Beyond". From the course description, it appears that the movies have not exclusively offered happy ("feelgood") endings. See:

https://pll.harvard.edu/course/american-dreams-made-hollywood-and-beyond?delta=0
 
Last edited:
Bill Williams, I agree with you that this post from Vixen is confusing.

The questions I perceive are 1) who are the foreigners, 2) who was teaching the lesson, 3) what was the lesson, and 4) how was the lesson taught?

I also looked online for Hollywood America to try to understand that reference and found that there's a course at Harvard U Summer School called "American Dreams Made in Hollywood and Beyond". From the course description, it appears that the movies have not exclusively offered happy ("feelgood") endings. See:

https://pll.harvard.edu/course/american-dreams-made-hollywood-and-beyond?delta=0


1. Those pesky Italians.

2. Donald Trump and Hillary.

3. "Don't mess with Americans'.

4. "We will not extradite a U.S. citizen'.
 
Fixed your statement above.

1. The Massei court motivation report and verdict remain as a record of a miscariage of justice, full of legal flaws: violations of Italian law and international law. It was quashed by an Italian appeals court (Hellmann court).
2. The final definitive judgment on the murder/rape charges against Knox and Sollecito remain that of the Marasca CSC panel. Your (or anyone's) inability or desire not to read and comprehend the text of that judgment is your (or anyone's) own issue and apparently can't be overcome by logical argument based on a fair reading of its text. As pointed out in that text, the alleged evidence of the guilt of Knox and Sollecito was not credible evidence and/or was contradictory evidence. Under Italian law, a judgment of guilt must be based upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt (CPP Article 533). Therefore, Knox and Sollecito were finally and definitively acquitted of the murder/rape charges.



You have a great sense of humour, Numbers. Thank you for giving me the best laugh of the day.



<fx still chuckling>
 
Numbers said:
1. The Massei court motivation report and verdict remain as a record of a miscariage of justice, full of legal flaws: violations of Italian law and international law. It was quashed by an Italian appeals court (Hellmann court).

You have a great sense of humour, Numbers. Thank you for giving me the best laugh of the day.

You've completely lost me here. The Hellmann court in 2011 did quash the 2009 conviction of the Massei court, just as the 2013 Chieffi Panel of the ISC quashed the Hellmann acquitals.

It's hard to imagine that you have the vaguest inkling of the timeline of this case.
 
Er, it was YOU who tried to claim that Italy had the same institutionalised racism as America.

Your ability to spin things is impressive. However, we can go back read what is actually said:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The U.S.A, has a Black colony who are set up from birth to be disadvantaged int he penal system. (Robert Hillary King of the 'Angola Three' said, 'I was born in the U.S.A. born Black, born poor. Is it then any wonder I have spent most of my life in prison?'
Are you trying to claim that minorities, especially African/African descent people, do not face the same kind of discrimination in Italy and other EU countries? If so, I suggest you try reading:
>snipped for space>
and
See the above report that disproves your claim. Italy hasn't had the same long history as the US in which discrimination against Blacks became institutionalized, but give them time. I suggest you look at the long history of systemic racism against the Roma in Italy to get an idea of where it's going:

This ITALIAN journalist of color wrote an article on systemic and endemic racism in Italy and she has a book on, too:

The main difference between Europe and the US is that for a long time Europeans practiced their racism abroad. In Italy, systemic racism isn’t rooted in segregation, as it is in the US, but in colonialism and, more recently, immigration.
Historically, in Italy we never had a society polarised between Black and white and that is one of the reasons why systemic racism may be more difficult to identify here. Its existence isn’t validated by race-related data, as happens in the UK or US (censuses in Italy don’t ask people about their ethnicity or race). The proof is in the collective experience of non-white Italians – who are rarely listened to.
But this is still a country where openly racist politicians are invited by journalists on to TV shows to share their undemocratic views for the sake of “freedom of speech”. For example, you can’t wipe overnight the memory of Gianluca Buonanno, an Italian MP (from the far-Right Northern League), describing Romani people as “the scum of society”, just because a handful of Italian reporters are covering the death of George Floyd and its aftermath in America. Certainly, I can’t.


It was you yourself that claimed that because bent prosecutors in the USA resort to bribing witnesses to secure a conviction against largely Black guys that only get overturned after 29/42 years or however long they were forced to spend time in a slave-based prison that was invariably a former slave plantation.

Once again, we can read what I really said, and your spin on it is...ahem...interesting:

:
The idea that some rogue prosecutor can successfully persecute a couple of sweet kiddies is just a PIP fantasy.

Well, actually, dishonest prosecutors have been found to have done exactly that in some cases. Example: the Stanley Mozee and Dennis Allen case (the prosecutor surrendered his law license in lieu of being officially disbarred) for withholding exculpatory evidence and lying about evidence. Example: the Adnan Syed case where prosecutors suppressed exculpatory evidence. Example: the George Bell case where the prosecutor hid exculpatory evidence and lied about evidence.
But then again, you think that all the prosecutors, police, and convicting judges were all honest and ethical while claiming that every acquitting judge, defense lawyer and expert that supported innocence was 'bent' or 'bought off'.


For example, Angola, where Albert Woodfox was incarcerated in solitary for a large part of the time, and only finding out after 40 years when the archives were finally retrieved and it was discovered the witness who testified he saw him murder the prison guard has been bribed by an officer with cigarettes and a cushy jail transfer. So now you have seen the error of your ways. Good.

None of this has anything to do with Italy's systemic and endemic racism which you deny exists. What we've seen is you deliberately twisting what I said to suit your own agenda.


So now we are agreed that the viewpoint from America is 'How come they haven't pinned it all on the Black guy? How incredibly outrageous!' because this is the hegemony view. You tried to make out it was exactly the same in Italy by pointing out people being shouted at in the street by a few right wing nutters.

LOL! I do have to admire your persistence, even if it's to blatantly wrong.

Want more proof that Italy has its own systemic/endemic racism? Read on:
But it is reductive to think that Italy"s racism is only a problem concerning the perpetrators of the umpteenth beating, or certain politicians who use xenophobia as a propaganda model.

Here, structural racism is approved and perpetuated even by the "least suspicious' people. A certain "unconscious' and "good-natured" racism is widespread among ordinary Italians and accepted even by those who think they have no stereotypes or prejudices.
These are the aspects that make racism structural and systemic in Italy, Europe and the West. Unlike what is often said, the discrimination and violence we witness every day are not the results of ignorance. They are a way of conceiving society based on inequalities, marginalization aand discrimination to protect the privileges of a few. To stop them, we need to deconstruct racism on a political, social and cultural level.


We can see this is the hegemony view by Donald Trump's knee jerk reaction to boycott Italy and to send funds to help out Knox alone.

Why should Trump send money to a non-American citizen? How many of your fellow Finns sent money to Guede, Knox, or Sollecito? Did you send money to Guede? No? Why not? Should we infer you're racist because of that? I don't think so.

People in America just know it was the Black guy who did it alone.

I see. Everyone is America 'just knows that" do they? :lolsign:


As for Guede, he was caught in a crime. Of course he will say whatever to get out of it, just like the other two. That is not him being racist, 'Just like us!'

We finally agree on something. Guede wasn't being racist, he was using race to create sympathy for himself. That's called playing the race card in his favor. As I posted earlier, this was Judge Michelli's view of Rudy's nonsense:

to say something like “black man found, here’s the guilty party” makes no sense. The only person who could have seen any meaning in that phrase was, by sheer coincidence, RUDY himself, because it served him for justifying his reluctant behaviour in calling for help,not to mention his subsequent decamping: in his account, which at this point must be considered convenient,


Refusing to look at the truth doesn't make it go away. Only a child thinks that constant denial changes the truth of a matter. Or perhaps looking up grammerly to find an opt out clause. Or desperately looking for tu quoque moments.

I could not agree with you more! Now that you recognize this, perhaps you'll refrain from repeating it.

Read Marasca-Bruno and face the facts: that woman was NOT 'home all night' because the telephone logs say otherwise! FACE IT.

Ok... I'll bite: how do the phone logs show them elsewhere between 9:00 and the next morning...the hours in which the murder definitely took place?

This should be good......
 
Prove it. Prove the Italian word for 'drifter' is the same as the U.S.A. term meaning of 'bum, hobo'. AIUI it translates to 'ragga' or something similar simply being a colloquial term for a guy, neither good nor bad but lacking formal respect, such as 'bloke' or 'chap'.

Ahem...your claim was

In the case of Meredith Kercher's murder, there was a huge U.S.A-based campaign to pin the entire crime onto the African guy, Rudy Guede, with a certain author claiming that he was a drifter from a poverty stricken country where people lived in shacks with tin roofs

I provided three cited quotes that others, not just this "certain author" also said he was a drifter. I don't have prove another damn thing.

It was self-professed Knox advocate, Nina Burleigh, who brought the slur into common usage for Guede, with the press pack simply copying whatever went before. Thus, we have 'missing toddler Maddie', 'heiress Patty Hearst', 'evil Myra Hindley', etc., etc.

Prove it. Bringing in irrelevant nonsense doesn't support your claim. I do wish you'd provide evidence instead of these constant "proclamations" pulled out of ...well, we know where.

Interesting that one KrissyG made this same false claim in her blog:


For your information, Burleigh referred to Guede as a drifter on page 84 in her book published in 2011, while Barbie Nadeau...popular with the PGP crowd...referred to him as a ' local drifter' on page xvii in her "list of characters" in her book published in Jan. 2010.
And even earlier was a British journalist:

Richard Owens in the Times, Oct 28, 2008: Rudy Guede: engaging drifter who boasted ‘I will drink your blood’


 
These are findings of fact that come out of the weighing of evidence at the merits trial during which all parties were given the opportunity to present their case in front of legal experts in the form of a panel of judges, lay judges and a panel of jury members randomly selected from the public. These are the facts after a lengthy fair trial and the facts found beyond a reasonable doubt in perpetuity in the National Archives of Italy's legal documents.


People won't be looking up what TomG of ISF had to say in a chat forum.

You're right; they'll be looking up what the Marasca-Bruno Supreme Court says:
(The SC) "...annuls the ruling under appeal without referral with respect to the crimes under charges A), D) and E) of the rubric because the appellants did not commit the act.":hit:
 
Only in Hollywood America that fantasises about a 'feelgood' ending, with those pesky foreigners taught a lesson.


I've lost count of all the negative and false claims you've made about America/Americans for which you provide no evidence in your effort to paint poor, poor Rudy as a victim of...somehow...American racism. It falls as flat as a 1920's flapper.
 
You're right; they'll be looking up what the Marasca-Bruno Supreme Court says:
(The SC) "...annuls the ruling under appeal without referral with respect to the crimes under charges A), D) and E) of the rubric because the appellants did not commit the act.":hit:

I was going to respond to Vixen's post myself but I thought it was just too eccentric to be bothered with.

Hoots
 
Fixed your statement above.

1. The Massei court motivation report and verdict remain as a record of a miscariage of justice, full of legal flaws: violations of Italian law and international law. It was quashed by an Italian appeals court (Hellmann court).
2. The final definitive judgment on the murder/rape charges against Knox and Sollecito remain that of the Marasca CSC panel. Your (or anyone's) inability or desire not to read and comprehend the text of that judgment is your (or anyone's) own issue and apparently can't be overcome by logical argument based on a fair reading of its text. As pointed out in that text, the alleged evidence of the guilt of Knox and Sollecito was not credible evidence and/or was contradictory evidence. Under Italian law, a judgment of guilt must be based upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt (CPP Article 533). Therefore, Knox and Sollecito were finally and definitively acquitted of the murder/rape charges.

You have a great sense of humour, Numbers. Thank you for giving me the best laugh of the day.


<fx still chuckling>

You've completely lost me here. The Hellmann court in 2011 did quash the 2009 conviction of the Massei court, just as the 2013 Chieffi Panel of the ISC quashed the Hellmann acquitals.
It's hard to imagine that you have the vaguest inkling of the timeline of this case.

Vixen, thanks for the compliment on my sense of humor, although I can assure you it is similar to that of innumerable others.

However, it seems that your response was actually meant as a kind of criticism of my post stating that the Hellmann appeals court had quashed the Massei court's convictions of Knox and Sollecito on the murder/rape charges.

While the post by Bill Williams seems to suggest the vague and erroneous criticism in your response post is based on a lack of knowledge of the timeline of the case, I think it is more likely due to either a profound ignorance of Italian law or a profound desire to ignore Italian law.

In case there are persons who are uncertain of the relevant Italian law, I will present a brief summary.

1. Under Italian law, when a first-instance court judgment is appealed by the accused or by a prosecutor who seeks to overturn all or part of the judgment, the case is taken up by a Court of Appeal (CPP Article 593). The Court of Appeal then is authorized to judge the case that is appealed (CPP Article 596) relating to the matters addressed by the appeal documents (CPP Article 597).

2. All the provisions or procedures of a first-instance court are available to the Court of Appeal, and may be used as applicable to the case (CPP Article 598) including the renewal of the trial evidentiary hearing, by the order of the judge, if requested by one of the parties or because new evidence is discovered or if the judge considers it necessary (CPP Article 603).

3. Finally, the judge of the Court of Appeal must deliver a judgment confirming or amending (in whole or part) the judgment under appeal (CPP Article 605).
If the Court of Appeal judgment amends the first-instance judgment in whole or part, the Court of Appeal motivation report must provide reasoning for those amendments. This is obvious because a statement providing reasoning is required for all judgments under the Italian Constitution (Article 111).

Obviously, the parts of the first-instance judgment amended by the Court of Appeal are quashed - no longer operative - and replaced by the amended reasoning and verdict. However, the judgment of a Court of Appeal may be appealed to the Supreme Court of Cassation (CSC) by the accused or by the prosecutor (CPP Articles 607 and 608, respectively) as long as the appeal arguments are in accordance with the requirements (CPP Article 606).

Bottom line: The Hellmann Court of Appeal quashed the Massei first-instance court judgment in accordance with CPP Article 605. The Hellmann court acquitted Knox and Sollecito of the murder/rape charges, but convicted Knox of calunnia against Lumumba (acquitting her of the aggravating factor), sentencing her to 3 years already served.
Of course, the Chieffi CSC judgment quashed the Hellmann court judgment with the exception of the calunnia conviction, which it affirmed. The case was referred to the Nencini Court of Appeal for retrial (including on the calunnia charge with aggravating factor). The Nencini court convicted. The case was appealed to the CSC, and the Marasca CSC panel quashed the Nencini court judgment, acquitted Knox and Sollecito of the murder/rape charges, and re-affirmed Knox's conviction for calunnia without the aggravating factor.

Then the ECHR accepted Knox's application for judgment of violations of international law by Italy, and found that Italy, for Knox's conviction for calunnia, had violated her rights to a fair trial by denying her a lawyer and a fair interpreter during interrogation as well as violating her right to have her credible repeated complaints of mistreatment by the authorities investigated. The case is under supervision before the Committee of Ministers awaiting an Action Plan from Italy. (See: https://hudoc.exec.coe.int/eng?i=004-52517)

Sollecito has also lodged a case with the ECHR. His case relates to the denial of compensation for unjust detention by unfair use of statements inadmissible under Italian law and failure to respect the presumption of innocence. The case has been Communicated to Italy by the ECHR. (See: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-215997)
 
Last edited:
Guede's D.N.A. was collected from the cottage at the same time as Knox' and Sollecito's. Ditto the luminol application.

As for the 'not guilty owing to insufficient evidence;, this is surely where the Supreme Court is defective, as the facts found in the merits trial still stands - the numerous lies of Knox and Sollecito - the staged burglary - Knox covering for Guede by naming Lumumba - Knox definitely present at the murder scene, Sollecito almost certainly so. Had the Supreme Court followed the correct and conventional procedure, they would have handed the case back down to the lower court clear directions to rectify whatever was claimed to be in error.

Marasca-Bruno did say Knox acted racistly in naming Lumumba as a substitute Black guy for Guede.


Are you really not reading the (reliable) journalism on this case, nor the statements posted in this thread?

The salient point is that Guede's inculpatory DNA samples were orders of magnitude greater in size than either Knox's or Sollecito's. And Stefanoni seems to have been reasonably competent in reliably analysing/matching higher masses of DNA (notwithstanding the gross errors she and her team made in collecting the evidence, which inevitably resulted in a classic case of GIGO). By contrast, Stefanoni not only was demonstrably incompetent in reliably analysing/matching low-template masses of DNA, but also she appears not to have even known how incompetent she was in this area, and she then lied in court about her competency. Great stuff, Patrizia!

Oh and there's also the (inconvenient) fact that Guede initially claimed he'd never been in the girls' cottage before or since the murder - and then changed his story when he realised that there was evidence of his presence.

Oh and there's also the (inconvenient) fact that it was actually Lalli, the pathologist, who collected Guede's DNA from in/around the victim's genital area, and not the incompetent goons in Stefanoni's "crime scene investigation destruction" team.

Oh and there's also the (inconvenient) fact that even if one were to discount all of Guede's DNA evidence - which one absolutely does not have to do, but just supposing for the sake of argument - his presence in the cottage at exactly the time of the murder is proven anyhow by his (reliable) palm print, made in the victim's blood, found on a pillowcase covering a pillow that was found underneath the victim.

Oh and there's also the (inconvenient) fact that Guede's proven presence and demeanour in more than one of the late-night clubs/discos in Perugia city centre within literally a few hours of the murder, coupled with his subsequent flight to Germany, is entirely incompatible with his claimed version of events (that is to say, the version he settled upon, once it had become clear that he had no chance of successfully claiming not to have been in Kercher's room at the time of her murder).

As the saying goes: "Apart from that........"

Hope that's been explained sufficiently clearly. But always (un)happy to help if not.
 
Only in Hollywood America that fantasises about a 'feelgood' ending, with those pesky foreigners taught a lesson.

This is a confusing post. Since it was the Italian Supreme Court which annuled the convictions of AK and RS, which 'foreigners' were the ISC trying to teach a lesson?

Bill Williams, I agree with you that this post from Vixen is confusing.

The questions I perceive are 1) who are the foreigners, 2) who was teaching the lesson, 3) what was the lesson, and 4) how was the lesson taught?

I also looked online for Hollywood America to try to understand that reference and found that there's a course at Harvard U Summer School called "American Dreams Made in Hollywood and Beyond". From the course description, it appears that the movies have not exclusively offered happy ("feelgood") endings. See:

https://pll.harvard.edu/course/american-dreams-made-hollywood-and-beyond?delta=0

1. Those pesky Italians.

2. Donald Trump and Hillary.

3. "Don't mess with Americans'.

4. "We will not extradite a U.S. citizen'.

It's clear from Vixen's response that the confusing post was merely shorthand for a conspiracy theory that makes no sense.

I don't know how many people were aware of Trump's call to boycott Italy when he made it - I certainly wasn't. Trump has, according to media, issued many calls for many different boycotts; I don't believe any of these calls for boycotts have produced any real results. According to a 2020 article in The Daily Beast*, Trump called for a boycott of Italy if Knox was not freed in a September, 2011 tweet. That was only one of about 14 calls for boycotts of companies or countries he has made, according to that source*.

At the relevant time, Trump had no role in the US government, but besides his businesses, he was a producer and star of a TV show called The Apprentice. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump

US law certainly allows the extradition of a US citizen, but it must be done in accordance with law**, so Vixen's comment on that is false.

* https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-l...om-oreos-to-goodyear-tires-and-apple-products

** See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_States
Section on Extradition from the US

also: http://hwblaw.com/international-extradition-us-citizen-can-extradited/
 
Last edited:
Skilled lying again, I notice.

"In Louisiana, Black people constituted 33% of state residents, but 52% of people in jail and 67% of people in prison."

Incarceration Trends in Louisiana - Vera Institutehttps://www.vera.org › downloads › pdfdownloads

Systemic:

"Systemic oppression is systematic and has historical antecedents; it is the intentional disadvantaging of groups of people based on their identity while advantaging members of the dominant group (gender, race, class, sexual orientation, language, etc.)."

Lens of Systemic Oppression - National Equity Project


So, totally pointless citing bent U.S. prosecutors as an example.


Ahh, so you're blissfully unaware that the statistics you've provided in no way necessitate racism within the Louisiana criminal justice system.

Let me give you another hypothetical example to illustrate how and why you're wrong:

Suppose there are 200 adult males with the family name "Smith" living within a given jurisdiction. And that there are 200 adult males with the family name "Jones" living in the same jurisdiction.

Suppose now that, for complex socio-economic reasons, 60 adult males with the family name "Smith" commit serious crime over a certain period, while only 30 adult males with the family name "Jones" commit serious crime over the same period. And suppose for a moment that law enforcement has a perfect record in catching, prosecuting and imprisoning all perps of serious crime.

With me so far?

Now, someone who knew no better might announce "AHA! There are equal numbers of "Smith" and "Jones" adult males in this jurisdiction, yet there are twice as many Smiths in prison! This shows that the criminal justice system in this jurisdiction is discriminatory towards the "Smith" population compared with the "Jones" population!"

Hope that helps.


ETA: NB I'm not stating that there necessarily is NO institutionalised racism within the Louisiana criminal justice system. And I will also point out that the comparatively lower average socio-economic position of black people in the US, particularly in inner cities and Southers/Bible Belt states - which manifests itself in proportionately higher rates of crime among black populations - is the product of historic and (to at least some extent) current racist attitudes towards black people. But my point is that it's impossible simply to show the imprisonment rates per head of population and claim that this necessarily proves racism. It's a hell of a lot more complicated than that.
 
Last edited:
Sadly, you are started off on the wrong premise. It is not what the prosecutor claimed, it is what the merits courts and final legal facts found.


This was determined by the court, not the prosecutor nor the defence but what was found to be the facts beyond a reasonable doubt.


However, you got your wish, the woman was sprung out of jail early. Hurrah, for getting away with it by force of American public opinion!

Are you proud of yourselves, that Mez' parents died without getting justice for her horrible murder by three horrible people?


It's rather surprising (well no, actually it isn't) that, after all these years, you still appear to have an insurmountable problem understanding how criminal justice systems actually function - particularly when it comes to the role, responsibility, remit and authority of appellate courts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom