The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 31

[Welshman]

Seriously, people here seem quite unaware that the Public Prosecutor is actually an entire department with literally hundreds of employees, clerks, lawyers, IT guys, mailroom staff, secretaries. The idea that Mignini is responsible for the gruesome twosome being found guilty (both in the merits trial and the Appeal court, with dozens of lay judges, jurors and any number of attorneys) is a product borne of naivety. Like the Prosecutor is some malevolent figure in a cardigan smoking a pipe and stroking his beard, like some Netflix horror film.

In the real world it is so much more dull and mundane than that. People are found guilty by due process because the evidence is stacked up against them beyond a reasonable doubt, the bar being ever higher the more serious the crime.

Vixen has this fixed view point that police/prosecutors are ethical and police/prosecutors misconduct never happens and they can do no wrong. This post is proof of this. The fact that PGP believe that the courts who found Amanda and Raffaele guilty were fair shows that PGP live in a fantasy world totally divorced from reality.

 

[Stacyhs]

Seriously, people here seem quite unaware that the Public Prosecutor is actually an entire department with literally hundreds of employees, clerks, lawyers, IT guys, mailroom staff, secretaries. The idea that Mignini is responsible for the gruesome twosome being found guilty (both in the merits trial and the Appeal court, with dozens of lay judges, jurors and any number of attorneys) is a product borne of naivety. Like the Prosecutor is some malevolent figure in a cardigan smoking a pipe and stroking his beard, like some Netflix horror film.

Another lecture on the obvious?

Mignini was in control of the investigation that was revealed to be biased, rushed, and incompetent. As M-B stated it was an investigation of "clamorous failures", investigative “amnesia”, and of "culpable omissions of
investigative activity".

MIGNINI jumped to the stunningly ridiculous conclusion that a woman had to be involved because the body was covered. HE jumped to the equally ridiculous conclusion that the murder was connected to a Halloween "sacrificial rite", then to a "sex game gone wrong" and that Amanda was "jealous" of Meredith. NONE of these was true. HE knew there was no evidence of Knox in that room and that the only evidence against Raffaele was a single, highly compromised for contamination sample of LCN DNA on the bra clasp. HE knew all the evidence pointed to one man: Guede. A less egotistical prosecutor would have admitted this and never brought charges against either. But, like other people with a fragile ego, he simply could not...and still cannot... admit he was wrong.

In the real world it is so much more dull and mundane than that. People are found guilty by due process because the evidence is stacked up against them beyond a reasonable doubt, the bar being ever higher the more serious the crime.

In the real world, innocent people are wrongfully found guilty because they are coerced into false confessions by the police, the prosecution knowingly presents misleading info such as the text to Lumumba, makes up motives that never existed, and even withholds critical exculpatory information as in negative TMB tests.

 

[Bill Williams]

I don't think you understand how public prosecutors work. They are advised by the police of a suspected crime. In the case of a murder, they will often attend the crime scene, together with forensic detectives to witness the body and its circumstances. The prosecutor has no powers beyond recommending a suspect be charged or remanded. It is then up to the remanding magistrate or judge to make further decisions. In both cases, the suspect gets to be represented by their own defence attorney and any decisions made are entirely by the court and not by the prosecutor. The prosecutor in the Nencini appeal was Crini, so the idea that 'it was Mignini what convicted the innocent lambs' is ridiculous sentimental nonsense.

Nothing at all to do with personalities. You have been watching too much Columbo or Perry Mason.

This whole post is a word-salad, simply words typed out onto a webpage, words that describe nothing of reality in the world, meant to fill the thread with noise.

In Canada, even with a unified, federal Criminal Code, each province 'prosecutes' differently according to its own provincial legislature. This is more than to do with the Province of Quebec, which hears civil cases according to French-heritage civil law.

Each provincial legislature decides what the role is for Crown Prosecutors, some provinces leave the charging process with The Crown, others leave the charge process with police. There are other differences which mean that each province, in practice, operates a de facto different legal system.

So, tell us again how "public prosecutors work"? They don't even work the way you riffed about in Italy!

 

[Numbers]

I don't think you understand how public prosecutors work. They are advised by the police of a suspected crime. In the case of a murder, they will often attend the crime scene, together with forensic detectives to witness the body and its circumstances. The prosecutor has no powers beyond recommending a suspect be charged or remanded. It is then up to the remanding magistrate or judge to make further decisions. In both cases, the suspect gets to be represented by their own defence attorney and any decisions made are entirely by the court and not by the prosecutor. The prosecutor in the Nencini appeal was Crini, so the idea that 'it was Mignini what convicted the innocent lambs' is ridiculous sentimental nonsense.

Nothing at all to do with personalities. You have been watching too much Columbo or Perry Mason[/I].

This whole post is a word-salad, simply words typed out onto a webpage, words that describe nothing of reality in the world, meant to fill the thread with noise.
In Canada, even with a unified, federal Criminal Code, each province 'prosecutes' differently according to its own provincial legislature. This is more than to do with the Province of Quebec, which hears civil cases according to French-heritage civil law.

Each provincial legislature decides what the role is for Crown Prosecutors, some provinces leave the charging process with The Crown, others leave the charge process with police. There are other differences which mean that each province, in practice, operates a de facto different legal system.

So, tell us again how "public prosecutors work"? They don't even work the way you riffed about in Italy!

Vixen, it is very clear from your post that either you do not understand how Public Prosecutors work in Italy, or you are intentionally obfuscating.

The role of Public Prosecutors under Italian law has been discussed a number of times in this thread. I will go over some of their key legal roles, and point out differences with US practice.

1. Prosecutors in Italy are obligated to investigate alleged crimes and obligated to prosecute crimes when the prosecutor decides that a crime has indeed occurred and when a credible suspect (based upon reasonable suspicion in accordance with ECHR case law) has been identified, in accordance with Italian Constitution Article 112 and CPP Articles 326 and 358.

In contrast, US prosecutors are not obligated to prosecute; they have prosecutorial discretion: if a case is weak, a US prosecutor may decide not to prosecute.

2. Prosecutors in Italy are magistrates attached to a court in a specific district; they are appointed officials selected on the basis of performance on an examination. Italian prosecutors are members of the judicial branch. They are responsible to Italy's High Council of the Judiciary, although the Minister of Justice has the authority to initiate disciplinary action (Italian Constitution Article 107).

In contrast, at the state and local level, US chief prosecutors are most often elected executive officials or, perhaps in some states, appointed by the relevant executive. The chief local prosecutor (usually called the district attorney, county attorney, or state's attorney) appoints deputies who conduct the prosecutions of alleged crimes in the district or county. Typically, each state also has an elected Attorney General who does not direct or supervise the chief local prosecutors but may, usually on request, provide assistance. In a few small population states (for example, Rhode Island and Alaska), there are no local prosecutors and the Attorney General's office handles all prosecutions.

3. A prosecutor in Italy, after being informed of an alleged crime, is required by Italian law to form a team of police officers to assist in the investigation of the alleged crime. The prosecutor actively manages the police team, who are under his direct supervision for the investigation. Essentially, the prosecutor acts as the chief lead detective and is personally responsible for the investigation (CPP Articles 327 and 370).

In the US, a prosecutor relies upon the police, who are under the leadership and supervision of a police chief, police commissioner, or sheriff, to form a team, typically reporting to a lead detective for the investigation, according to police regulations and leadership decisions. The prosecutor consults with the police and may suggest activities, but cannot command activities. In some (rare) jurisdictions, there is a small group of investigators attached to a district attorney's office (to my knowledge, such investigators serve primarily for special investigations such as those involving organized crime or official misconduct).

4. Vixen, thanks for reminding us of the US TV detective show Columbo (he was a fictional lieutenant in a fictionalized police force solving fictional crimes) and the fictional defense lawyer Perry Mason (a character who originated in the fictional stories of Erle Stanley Gardner, who actually was a lawyer).

Sources:

https://www.quirinale.it/allegati_statici/costituzione/costituzione_inglese.pdf

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-di-procedura-penale/

The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation; ed. M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, and F. Scarpa; Wolters Kluwer Italia (C) 2014

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_attorney

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erle_Stanley_Gardner

 

[Bill Williams]

In contrast, US prosecutors are not obligated to prosecute; they have prosecutorial discretion: if a case is weak, a US prosecutor may decide not to prosecute.

In Canada, when it is the Crown Counsel which decides charge approval, the standard is a bit different.

1) can they reasonably expect to convict, based on the available evidence
2) is it in the 'public interest' to convict

https://www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca/eng/pub/fpsd-sfpg/fps-sfp/tpd/p2/ch03.html#section_2

 

[Numbers]

Vixen, it is very clear from your post that either you do not understand how Public Prosecutors work in Italy, or you are intentionally obfuscating.

The role of Public Prosecutors under Italian law has been discussed a number of times in this thread. I will go over some of their key legal roles, and point out differences with US practice.

....

To the above should be added:

1.5 Under Italian law, the prosecutor is obligated to include in the investigation the discovery (ascertainment) of facts and circumstances (evidence) favorable to the suspect (CPP Article 358).

Similarly, under US procedural law, the US Supreme Court has stated that it is a Constitutional duty of the prosecutor to disclose evidence favorable to the defendant (Brady rule).

Source:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/brady_rule

 

[Vixen]

Whilst the Italian crime investigators might technically be under the auspices of the office of Public Prosecutor, the police officer in charge of the Kercher murder was Napoleoni, not Mignini. All Mignini did was set out the parameters. He certainly would not have wasted his time deliberately and knowingly bringing innocent people to court. Ultimately, it is for the courts to determine innocence or guilt.

The idea that some rogue prosecutor can successfully persecute a couple of sweet kiddies is just a PIP fantasy. In the real world, one just has to accept reality, which is that in the merits trials the pair were found guilty by a fair procedure. The evidence is irrefutable beyond a reasonable doubt. To this day, none of the three have been able to tell the truth. That speaks volumes, because it means the truth is damning.

 

[Stacyhs]

Whilst the Italian crime investigators might technically be under the auspices of the office of Public Prosecutor, the police officer in charge of the Kercher murder was Napoleoni, not Mignini.

Marco Chiacchiera was initially in charge with Napoleoni working for him but he handed the case to her on Nov. 11 because he was "too busy"...or maybe because he had advised Mignini not to arrest Knox and Sollecito on Nov. 6. It was the first time she had led a murder investigation. Which could explain the terrible job she did. But she still worked for Mignini who had the ultimate authority in directing what direction and how the investigation was done.

All Mignini did was set out the parameters.

And you know this how?

He certainly would not have wasted his time deliberately and knowingly bringing innocent people to court.

I've never contended he "deliberately and knowingly [brought] innocent people to court," but he certainly zeroed in on Knox and Sollecito almost immediately and directed the investigation to focus on them even before the forensics had come back.

Ultimately, it is for the courts to determine innocence or guilt.

You don't say! Even so, Mignini and the police were convinced of their guilt long before the investigation was completed. As de Felice said just 5 days after the murder, "Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in. They all participated but had different roles."

The idea that some rogue prosecutor can successfully persecute a couple of sweet kiddies is just a PIP fantasy.

Well, actually, dishonest prosecutors have been found to have done exactly that in some cases. Example: the Stanley Mozee and Dennis Allen case (the prosecutor surrendered his law license in lieu of being officially disbarred) for withholding exculpatory evidence and lying about evidence. Example: the Adnan Syed case where prosecutors suppressed exculpatory evidence. Example: the George Bell case where the prosecutor hid exculpatory evidence and lied about evidence.
But then again, you think that all the prosecutors, police, and convicting judges were all honest and ethical while claiming that every acquitting judge, defense lawyer and expert that supported innocence was 'bent' or 'bought off'.

But speaking of fantasies:

In the real world, one just has to accept reality, which is that in the merits trials the pair were found guilty by a fair procedure. The evidence is irrefutable beyond a reasonable doubt. To this day, none of the three have been able to tell the truth. That speaks volumes, because it means the truth is damning.

Uh-huh. In the real world, one just has to accept that the M-B SC said the exact opposite regarding the evidence. Please don't resort to your usual nonsense that the SC was bent, bought off, etc.

 

[Vixen]

Comparing the EU-regulated Italian Roman Law system with that of the U.S.A. is a totally false equivalent. The U.S.A, has a Black colony who are set up from birth to be disadvantaged int he penal system. (Robert Hillary King of the 'Angola Three' said, 'I was born in the U.S.A. born Black, born poor. Is it then any wonder I have spent most of my life in prison?' [No doubt the mockers would call this 'playing the race card' but those who have an understanding of sociological issues, realise that this is systemic and peculiar to the U.S.A.) To try and claim this works in reverse in Italy, whereby American tourists will find themselves systematically discriminated against by the cops and the prosecutors simply doesn't wash. Numbers has pointed out the discrimination ethnic Africans face in Italy but that hardly translates into 'institutlonalised racism of the type seen in the U.S.A. In any case, of the three defendants found guilty of the joint enterprise of murder, guess which one was the one who did the time and which was the one Donald Trump and his cohorts in shining armour came to the rescue of by launching a massive campaign of misinformation and image rehabilitation?

So in the PIP world the cops are the criminals and all the sinners saints.

 

[Numbers]

Comparing the EU-regulated Italian Roman Law system with that of the U.S.A. is a totally false equivalent. The U.S.A, has a Black colony who are set up from birth to be disadvantaged int he penal system. (Robert Hillary King of the 'Angola Three' said, 'I was born in the U.S.A. born Black, born poor. Is it then any wonder I have spent most of my life in prison?' [No doubt the mockers would call this 'playing the race card' but those who have an understanding of sociological issues, realise that this is systemic and peculiar to the U.S.A.) To try and claim this works in reverse in Italy, whereby American tourists will find themselves systematically discriminated against by the cops and the prosecutors simply doesn't wash. Numbers has pointed out the discrimination ethnic Africans face in Italy but that hardly translates into 'institutlonalised racism of the type seen in the U.S.A. In any case, of the three defendants found guilty of the joint enterprise of murder, guess which one was the one who did the time and which was the one Donald Trump and his cohorts in shining armour came to the rescue of by launching a massive campaign of misinformation and image rehabilitation?
So in the PIP world the cops are the criminals and all the sinners saints.

Vixen, are you now claiming that the ECHR was racist in finding that Italy had violated her rights by denying her a fair trial on the charge of calunnia against Lumumba, and by denying her a fair investigation for her credible repeated complaints of mistreatment during her interrogation?

You also are neglecting the facts established by the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation that there was no credible evidence that Knox and Sollecito had committed the murder/rape of Kercher. Those facts led the Marasca panel of that court to definitively and finally acquit Knox and Sollecito of the murder/rape.

You have provided no credible evidence that racism or any corrupt influence played any role in Guede's conviction or the definitive and final acquittal of Knox and Sollecito.

You continually state that the Italian first-instance court judgment against Knox and Sollecito for the murder/rape charges is valid, but under Italian law, the only valid judgment is the definitive and final judgment, which in the Knox - Sollecito case for the murder/rape charges was given by the Marasca panel of the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, are you now claiming that the ECHR was racist in finding that Italy had violated her rights by denying her a fair trial on the charge of calunnia against Lumumba, and by denying her a fair investigation for her credible repeated complaints of mistreatment during her interrogation?

You also are neglecting the facts established by the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation that there was no credible evidence that Knox and Sollecito had committed the murder/rape of Kercher. Those facts led the Marasca panel of that court to definitively and finally acquit Knox and Sollecito of the murder/rape.

You have provided no credible evidence that racism or any corrupt influence played any role in Guede's conviction or the definitive and final acquittal of Knox and Sollecito.

You continually state that the Italian first-instance court judgment against Knox and Sollecito for the murder/rape charges is valid, but under Italian law, the only valid judgment is the definitive and final judgment, which in the Knox - Sollecito case for the murder/rape charges was given by the Marasca panel of the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation.

It is important to be aware that the ECHR and the Italian Penal system deals with two totally different aspects of law. The former deals with the law as it pertains to Human Rights and the later, Criminal Law. Thus, it is not mutually exclusive to have a finding in both. For example, in the case of the killing of Lee Rigby, the killer, Michael Adebowale, received a life sentence with a 'whole life' tariff (i.e., he will not be out after eight years except in a coffin). This character 'won' his case at the ECHR under Article 8, right to human/family life:

The ECHR said last year that, while it accepted that whole life orders could be justified, there should nevertheless be some way of having imprisonment reviewed after 25 years.

Mackrell

...whether or not the English courts accept it. So you can lose on the roundabout but win on the swings.

The key point is, one ruling doesn't cancel out the other.

Knox had one small issue found in her favour, amongst a whole plethora of stuff that was thrown out (such as the claim she was forced to name possible HIV infection partners and told she had a false positive result), and that was to do with having an interpreter.

That doesn't nullify the fact the merits court before a jury, judges and lay judges found her guilty of aggravated murder and upheld on appeal.

There is nothing racist about that,

However, the example another poster provided of a bent prosecutor was a classic example of what happens to Black defendants in the U.S.A. 'Witnesses' are paid to testified against persons who can't be proven guilty in order to get them convicted. That is why so many Black American prisoners are being released after 40 years in solitary because their cases were invariably based on corrupt practices, such as all-white juries with the fore person picked by the judge. Prison guards coming from a long tradition of Klu Klux Klan families keeping down the generations of Black prisoners, jailed after 'three strikes', so could be in jail for life for relatively trivial offences. What drives this? Fear. There is none of this type of fear in Italy. However, the US press has simply taken it for granted - or expects it to be taken as the case, due to centuries of deep racist attitudes - that 'only the Black guy is guilty' and express outrage and denial at the thought that Knox could possibly have been a friend of the Black guy. You have seen it here.

 

[Bill Williams]

It is ...... defendants in the U.S.A. 'Witnesses' are paid to testified against persons who can't be proven guilty in order to get them convicted. That is why so many Black American prisoners are being released after 40 years in solitary because their cases were invariably based on corrupt practices, such as all-white juries with the fore person picked by the judge. Prison guards coming from a long tradition of Klu Klux Klan families keeping down the generations of Black prisoners, jailed after 'three strikes', so could be in jail for life for relatively trivial offences. What drives this? Fear. There is none of this type of fear in Italy. However, the US press has simply taken it for granted - or expects it to be taken as the case, due to centuries of deep racist attitudes - that 'only the Black guy is guilty' and express outrage and denial at the thought that Knox could possibly have been a friend of the Black guy. You have seen it here.

More word salad. More flooding the space with noise.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

However, the example another poster provided of a bent prosecutor was a classic example of what happens to Black defendants in the U.S.A. 'Witnesses' are paid to testified against persons who can't be proven guilty in order to get them convicted. That is why so many Black American prisoners are being released after 40 years in solitary because their cases were invariably based on corrupt practices, such as all-white juries with the fore person picked by the judge. Prison guards coming from a long tradition of Klu Klux Klan families keeping down the generations of Black prisoners, jailed after 'three strikes', so could be in jail for life for relatively trivial offences. What drives this? Fear. There is none of this type of fear in Italy. However, the US press has simply taken it for granted - or expects it to be taken as the case, due to centuries of deep racist attitudes - that 'only the Black guy is guilty' and express outrage and denial at the thought that Knox could possibly have been a friend of the Black guy. You have seen it here.

This is a product of nothing but your vivid and untethered imagination. Stop projecting your own biases on others; you can't read minds, and you don't have a clue how the "US press" thinks. It may come as a surprise to you, but there are over 300 million people in the US, and they don't all think alike.

As to "there is none of this type of fear in Italy"- you don't know that either. What magic is Italy protected by that makes it immune to prejudice and bias that seem to flourish in backwards America?

 

[Stacyhs]

Comparing the EU-regulated Italian Roman Law system with that of the U.S.A. is a totally false equivalent.

Yet you repeatedly bring up comparisons to the British legal system.

The U.S.A, has a Black colony who are set up from birth to be disadvantaged int he penal system. (Robert Hillary King of the 'Angola Three' said, 'I was born in the U.S.A. born Black, born poor. Is it then any wonder I have spent most of my life in prison?'

Are you trying to claim that minorities, especially African/African descent people, do not face the same kind of discrimination in Italy and other EU countries? If so, I suggest you try reading:

Letter from Africa: How racism haunts black people in Italy

My Very Personal Taste of Racism Abroad
For an African-American woman, a study-abroad program in Italy led to an eye-opening experience. “Disgusting black women” were the stinging words of one racial encounter.

National Analytical Study on Racist Violence and Crime
RAXEN Focal Point for ITALY

[No doubt the mockers would call this 'playing the race card'

Really? Do you seriously want to go another round with me about this after your last failed attempt? Getting KO'd once wasn't enough?

but those who have an understanding of sociological issues, realise that this is systemic and peculiar to the U.S.A.)

Um...no it's not. This report shows otherwise:

INSTITUTIONAL RACISM AND ETHNIC PROFILING IN ITALY

According to the European Network Against Racism (ENAR), in 2009-10 Italy was the second country in Europe when it comes to the occurance rate of mistreatment, attacks and racially motivated acts of violence. Main victims were citizens of African descent, Roma and Sinti.

To try and claim this works in reverse in Italy, whereby American tourists will find themselves systematically discriminated against by the cops and the prosecutors simply doesn't wash.

Tell me who has claimed that? Does some anti-Americanism exist in Italy? Yes. But no one has claimed anti-Americanism is systemic by police and prosecutors.

Numbers has pointed out the discrimination ethnic Africans face in Italy but that hardly translates into 'institutlonalised racism of the type seen in the U.S.A.

See the above report that disproves your claim. Italy hasn't had the same long history as the US in which discrimination against Blacks became institutionalized, but give them time. I suggest you look at the long history of systemic racism against the Roma in Italy to get an idea of where it's going:

Italy’s Complacency on Racism Puts Lives at Risk

A 50-year-old man with links to the extreme right opens fire on Senegalese street vendors in Florence, killing two and seriously wounding three others. He then kills himself. An angry mob attacks a Roma camp in Turin after a teen-aged girl falsely claims she had been raped by two Roma men.

These events, two days apart in mid-December, serve as a stark reminder of increasing intolerance and racism in today’s Italy. In recent years, immigrants, Italians of foreign origin, and Roma have been assaulted, stabbed, shot at, and murdered.

These attacks are not isolated incidents but part of a wider pattern of racist violence. Mob violence against Roma in Naples in May 2008 and attacks on African migrant workers in Rosarno, a small town in the southern region of Calabria, in January 2010 made international headlines.

In any case, of the three ONE defendants found guilty of the joint enterprise of murder, guess which one was the one who did the time

Fixed that for you.
Have you joined the club of those who claim that Guede was only convicted because he's black and not because the evidence overwhelmingly proved he killed Kercher?

The one who did the time was the one definitively convicted of the crime. Knox and Sollecito were in prison until they were acquitted by Hellmann and released. Or do you now want to claim they should have remained in prison after being acquitted according to Italian law?

and which was the one Donald Trump and his cohorts in shining armour came to the rescue of by launching a massive campaign of misinformation and image rehabilitation?

Why should D. Trump speak up for an Ivorian who killed a British girl in Italy? I'm not even going to address the last part of that post as it deserves none.

So in the PIP world the cops are the criminals and all the sinners saints.

No one has said that but that does not stop you from repeating it over and over again. What you have said, repeatedly, is that every judge who acquitted was 'bent' or 'paid off' and the experts that did not support the prosecution's claims were also 'bent' or 'incompetent' or otherwise dishonest.

 

[AnimalFriendly]

The U.S.A, has a Black colony

Come again?

 

[Vixen]

This is a product of nothing but your vivid and untethered imagination. Stop projecting your own biases on others; you can't read minds, and you don't have a clue how the "US press" thinks. It may come as a surprise to you, but there are over 300 million people in the US, and they don't all think alike.

As to "there is none of this type of fear in Italy"- you don't know that either. What magic is Italy protected by that makes it immune to prejudice and bias that seem to flourish in backwards America?

No it is not. Read the Micheli report. He was the judge who sentenced Guede. His clear finding of fact is that Guede was an accessory to aggravated murder in cohorts with others. It states word by word that whilst others brought out knives he did nothing to stop it and indulged in sexual assault.

Yes, it is as horrible as the Charles Manson Atkins woman who held LaBianca's arms behind her back as her brutal 'Family' companion stabbed LaBianca to death.

Likewise, the merits courts found that Knox inflicted the fatal wound into Mez' neck, a vicious upward slicing movement which broke her hyoid bone and that Sollecito inflicted the secondary stabs on the other side of her neck with a different sized knife. The latter pair returned to stage a burglary and pose the body to make it look like a rape-murder. Sollecito's DNA was found on the victim's bra.

These are the findings of legal fact and as reiterated by the final Supreme Court who annulled the sentences for Knox and Sollecito on the grounds of 'insufficent evidence', a little used loophole for obvious reasons and obviously thanks to backchannelling by the US State Department, Knox having flown and the USA openly saying it would not extradite.

So not imagination but a matter of fact.


As for Italy being a racist country, nobody said they were not. However, they have not colonised Roma or Africans in their own country for four hundred years, as the U.S.A. has. I am sorry of you are offended but when another poster claims that because a prosecutor in the U.S.A. paid a witness in order to secure a conviction for a couple of Black guys that person really shoud have known that really is something that has been common practice in the U.S.A., especially in Louisiana, so not a 'Gotcha!' about Italy at all. In fact, it was a stupid example and showed a stupendous level of ignorance about their own country and its history.

As if Italy is equivalent to the U.S.A. when it comes to corrupt prosecutors and an inequitable justice system.


Maybe you are demanding that Italy should be similarly inequitable because that is your default perception.

 

[AnimalFriendly]

That is why so many Black American prisoners are being released after 40 years in solitary because their cases were invariably based on corrupt practices,

You can thank, among others, the Innocence Project for that. And do let us know when so much as one of these "Black American prisoners" has anything negative to say about Knox.

such as all-white juries with the fore person picked by the judge. Prison guards coming from a long tradition of Klu Klux Klan families keeping down the generations of Black prisoners

Examples, please? Particularly, post-mid-20th century....

the thought that Knox could possibly have been a friend of the Black guy. You have seen it here.

No I haven't. And there's no evidence that Sollecito & Guede had ever met each other. And yet they participated together in a murder? Nope.

 

[Vixen]

Yet you repeatedly bring up comparisons to the British legal system.



Are you trying to claim that minorities, especially African/African descent people, do not face the same kind of discrimination in Italy and other EU countries? If so, I suggest you try reading:

Letter from Africa: How racism haunts black people in Italy

My Very Personal Taste of Racism Abroad
For an African-American woman, a study-abroad program in Italy led to an eye-opening experience. “Disgusting black women” were the stinging words of one racial encounter.

National Analytical Study on Racist Violence and Crime
RAXEN Focal Point for ITALY



Really? Do you seriously want to go another round with me about this after your last failed attempt? Getting KO'd once wasn't enough?



Um...no it's not. This report shows otherwise:






Tell me who has claimed that? Does some anti-Americanism exist in Italy? Yes. But no one has claimed anti-Americanism is systemic by police and prosecutors.




See the above report that disproves your claim. Italy hasn't had the same long history as the US in which discrimination against Blacks became institutionalized, but give them time. I suggest you look at the long history of systemic racism against the Roma in Italy to get an idea of where it's going:






Fixed that for you.
Have you joined the club of those who claim that Guede was only convicted because he's black and not because the evidence overwhelmingly proved he killed Kercher?

The one who did the time was the one definitively convicted of the crime. Knox and Sollecito were in prison until they were acquitted by Hellmann and released. Or do you now want to claim they should have remained in prison after being acquitted according to Italian law?




Why should D. Trump speak up for an Ivorian who killed a British girl in Italy? I'm not even going to address the last part of that post as it deserves none.




No one has said that but that does not stop you from repeating it over and over again. What you have said, repeatedly, is that every judge who acquitted was 'bent' or 'paid off' and the experts that did not support the prosecution's claims were also 'bent' or 'incompetent' or otherwise dishonest.

Once again you are evading the issue by whataboutism. If Italy is of the same brand of racism as the U.S.A. how come it prosecuted all three defendants regardless of ethnicity? Note the campaign to 'free Knox!' comes from the U.S.A., furious and uncomprehending that they didn't 'just pin it on the Black guy'.

You keep claiming the evidence gathering was deficient and the DNA evidence contaminated. WAIT_! The forensics team who collected the evidence, finger, foot and hand prints and D.N.A. that convicted Guede are...exactly the same forensic team that collected the scientific evidence against Knox and Sollecito at the same time as Guede's and used the same laboratory and same scientists. So this was all right and proper for Guede but bent for Knox and Sollecito!!! The total lack of logic and contradictory claims either indicates you cannot see your own lack of logic or, more likely, you see it only too clearly but heck, who cares. Sentimentality, patriotism and a fantasy about corrupt prosecutors are king. **** truth, logic, facts, chronology, scientific evidence and reality.

Cue sophistry and semantics.

 

[Bill Williams]

the thought that Knox could possibly have been a friend of the Black guy. You have seen it here.

No I haven't. And there's no evidence that Sollecito & Guede had ever met each other. And yet they participated together in a murder? Nope.

No one here has ever, ever, said that there'd be no possibility that the two could be friends. That's part of the flooding of this thread with noise. You simply made it up.

The point was, the two weren't friends. Indeed, the first time Sollecito ever met Guede was in court.

Once again, please cite any proof of that ludicrous claim. You won't, not just because there is none - your whole purpose is simply to flood this thread with nonsense then move on.... your work is done without the cite, because factuality is not the point of the post.

 

[Vixen]

You can thank, among others, the Innocence Project for that. And do let us know when so much as one of these "Black American prisoners" has anything negative to say about Knox.



Examples, please? Particularly, post-mid-20th century....



No I haven't. And there's no evidence that Sollecito & Guede had ever met each other. And yet they participated together in a murder? Nope.

Read Albert Woodfox' Pullitzer Prize winning memoir 'Solitary'. George Jackson, Herman Wallace, Robert Hillary King.

Woodfox describes how some prisoner was given cigarettes for life and moved to a softer prison by a prison officer who wanted to secure a conviction against Woodfox so claimed he had witnessed him committing the crime. It only came out forty years later that the witness had been thus bribed So now we have the example from another poster of two more Black guys this week to whom this happened (names escape me) and is trying to claim that this is equivalent to a presumed bent Italian prosecutor.

As if that is a Q.E. D. that Mignini was bent.