Beating of Homeless...

Well if you'd have read my words, rather than misinterprested them, you would see that....

schplurg said:
It's Bush's fault!
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...obviously means Bush and all his cronies, which equals more than one politician hehe. I guess you and I both need to be more clear. I suppose this would be an appeal to popularity, but if I was the only person on this board who reached the conclusion I did regarding your statement then I would feel differently about this. I think it's trivial anyways and this derail has gone on long enough.

Let's get back on topic. You said:

I don't see any evidence for your statement that the "present political climate of "might makes right" contributes a great deal to the problem."
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Just what does this statement mean? This is one of the only comments made in this thread that is actually on topic, and it started the whole derail. If you weren't referring to the Bush administration then what were you referring to? I've explained to you, in detail, why I interpreted what you said the way I did.

Now do me the same favor and explain to me why I'm wrong instead of just calling me a liar...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50741
In short, they lie outright about one's position, and then run with their lie.

I submit that people who commit such outright frauds and deceptions should be universally shunned.
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Now, instead of calling me a liar (which I do not appreciate) and crying like a little baby on another self-important thread, why don't you simply explain your statement and prove us all wrong right here and now? Your behavior is quite mysterious. Put up or shut up already.

Edited to add link.
 
I'd love to discuss this issue, I'm just not sure what to add to it, or what the point of the thread is actually. There was no question raised in the OP.

It sucks that some kids/people hold human life to so low a value. I don't know if there has been an increase in this type of behavior in current years. If so, then it would be worthwhile to try and determine what may be causing this. So far only one person has offered any sort of explanation in this thread, and even that explanation was vague at best. If anyone has any sort of insight regarding this matter I'd like to hear it.

How about this...in Grand Theft Auto (video game) part of the game is to beat people up with baseball bats. Perhaps it's the video game's fault? I must say that I have played this game many times and have yet to beat anyone up with a bat in real life. However, after seeing this correlation, I'm suddenly a little nervous about the whole thing. Yes, I'm kidding. But then, why are we fascinated by violent games like this at all?

I seriously don't know what to make of a story like this. Bullying and tormenting a homeless person, or anyone someone feels powerful over, is not surprising, even expected unfortunately. But a vicious killing like this seems inhuman. Is this an innate behavior in human beings that we have simply managed to repress as we have become "civilized"? Are all of our violent urges, our fascination with death on TV, and our seeming propensity for killing each other evidence that we are just animals on good behavior?
 
schplurg said:
It sucks that some kids/people hold human life to so low a value.
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Agreed. I hope I don't need to elucidate.
I don't know if there has been an increase in this type of behavior in current years.
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I don't know for sure, either. For many years, correspondiing with good economic trends, violent crime was dropping, sometimes like a rock. I can not, however, provide any good evidence for cause/effect here.
If so, then it would be worthwhile to try and determine what may be causing this.
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First, allow me to preface this with the statement that NOTHING exculpates these creeps. Somebody used the word "sociopath", and I think that's probably accurate.

I can, perhaps, offer some insight based on experience in the 1972-75 timeframe. I know that's way, way, ago, as these things go, but I can offer at least this observation.

SOME people (please, this is nothing like a claim to universality, and don't take it that way) feel that "nothing they do matters". It comes down to the idea that they feel they are valueless, and they seem, sometimes, to extend that to the rest of the human race (and to pets and animals, but that's another thread). I did have some experience, mostly in taking reports from and about such people, in hearing what their internal justifications were. Such people were not necessarily poor, although some were, and were not of any particular race, color, or anything else, the only thing that seemed to be a common thread was "it doesn't matter, life sucks and then you die".

There was a somewhat woo-ish book by some guy named Neil Seligman out back then called "Hopelessness". While I can't support, even being outside of the field, all of his arguments, he did have some germ of truth somewhere in all of his comments, I think. The idea was that people who can not see that their own actions have any effect on their situation lack a basic feedback mechanism that keeps people "inside" social mores and behaviors.

So far only one person has offered any sort of explanation in this thread, and even that explanation was vague at best. If anyone has any sort of insight regarding this matter I'd like to hear it.
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That's the best I can do. I can't understand why anyone would go brutally beat up somebody for no good reason, personally. I mean, even if you feel that way yourself, why make it worse for others?

To some extent, I would conclude that rage at PERCIEVED misbehavior and "might makes right" sorts of appearances by leaders would encourage the kind of thinking that led to this act.

That doesn't even really indict the leaders, it means that some people are sick, and will "go off" in some given situation.
 
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schplurg said:
Now, instead of calling me a liar (which I do not appreciate) and crying like a little baby on another self-important thread, why don't you simply explain your statement and prove us all wrong right here and now? Your behavior is quite mysterious. Put up or shut up already.

Edited to add link.
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There's nothing mysterious in my mind about "present political climate". Sorry. Yes, to some extent that means Bush, but it also means Kerry, Hillary, Cheyney, DeLay, you-name-it.
 
I think the present political climate of "might makes right" contributes a great deal to the problem.

There's nothing mysterious in my mind about "present political climate". Sorry. Yes, to some extent that means Bush, but it also means Kerry, Hillary, Cheyney, DeLay, you-name-it.
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It appears that you're making a case that pretty much everybody in politics (you-name-it) bears responsibility for the climate of "might makes right" and contributes to the problem of brutalizing homeless people.

I'd like to pursue this line of reasoning because I don't see how this conclusion follows. What is your concept of "might makes right", for example? I don't hear anyone with real power in Washington being quite that blatant.
 
JJ seems to be the only one who doesn't understand what he posted.

And why did it take him over a half dozen posts before actualy making an attempt to clarify? Well that's how long it took him to think up some other explanation for his words.

And why do I dare say these things as if I was reading your mind? Because your blatant lying leaves no recourse.
 
jj said:
There's nothing mysterious in my mind about "present political climate". Sorry. Yes, to some extent that means Bush, but it also means Kerry, Hillary, Cheyney, DeLay, you-name-it.
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Does society reflect (and follow) the current political climate, or is the "current political climate" a reflection of society?In other words, maybe every democracy gets the politicians it deserves.
 
Whew - for a sec there, I thought a lengthy JREF thread might not get de-railed by a bunch of off-topic political and/or religious stuff and general catfight BS. Thanks for taking care of that.

:hurl:

If we ever get back to the actual topic, could someone PM me? thx
 
Molinaro said:
JJ seems to be the only one who doesn't understand what he posted.
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So, to continue this derail, you can't simply take the words for what they mean, and you have to insist that I posted something other than the simple, obvious words that I used.

Are you claiming mind-reading, or are you simply exhibiting your own prejudice?

Certainly the words "present political climate" do not say "George W. Bush", and they certainly don't say Bushitlerburton or whatever that stupid epithet is.

But, I guess "Molinaro" thinks that it's cool to make an argumentum ad populum. In "Molinaro"'s case, it appears to be linguistic relativism, eh?
 
brodski said:
Does society reflect (and follow) the current political climate, or is the "current political climate" a reflection of society?In other words, maybe every democracy gets the politicians it deserves.
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Now that's a very good question. Perhaps we should take that on in another thread, there is quite a (genuine) discussion to be had there, I expect.
 
bigred said:
Whew - for a sec there, I thought a lengthy JREF thread might not get de-railed by a bunch of off-topic political and/or religious stuff and general catfight BS. Thanks for taking care of that.

:hurl:

If we ever get back to the actual topic, could someone PM me? thx
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Sorry about that, it seems that some people have to put their own attempts at mind-reading and political demigogery above the discussion.
 
brodski said:
Does society reflect (and follow) the current political climate, or is the "current political climate" a reflection of society?In other words, maybe every democracy gets the politicians it deserves.
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Since the United States is not strictly speaking a democracy I'd like to open up the area of discussion.

What is the relationship between the current political climate from the point of view of the governors and the governed? Can the government be held responsible for the actions of its citizens if so under what circumstances?

In particular, does the present govenment of the US (construed in a large way) contribute to the brutalization of the defenseless among us?
 
Kullervo said:
Since the United States is not strictly speaking a democracy I'd like to open up the area of discussion.

What is the relationship between the current political climate from the point of view of the governors and the governed? Can the government be held responsible for the actions of its citizens if so under what circumstances?

In particular, does the present govenment of the US (construed in a large way) contribute to the brutalization of the defenseless among us?
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I think this deserves its own thread, actually, an unpolluted one?
 
On the other hand the idea of reclaiming a thread after derailment has its attractions.
 
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