The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 31

[TomG]

I gotta admit I'm gobsmacked ya'll are still talking about this. The rest of the world has moved on...

The problem is that there are acquittals but there is no closure. Lies masquerading as judicial facts make such a concept impossible, so it just keeps on going.

Hoots

 

[acbytesla]

The problem is that there are acquittals but there is no closure. Lies masquerading as judicial facts make such a concept impossible, so it just keeps on going.

Hoots

True. But even Amanda has moved on. Closure is really up to you. Isn't it time to move on? I know Amanda is innocent. But I also know that Vixen is never going to be convinced. I could care less what she and a few die hard crazies think.

 

[Welshman]

I was actually referring to Bar Standards, not the criminal code. An attorney has certain professional standards and reporting misconduct towards a client of his or hers (by the police or court officials) is his or her duty to report in a timely and proper manner to the right person or office.

In view of the fact Italy has a corrupt and dysfunctional justice system, is it credible that a complaint about police misconduct would have gone anywhere. Would making a complaint against corrupt and vindictive police/prosecutors be risky as they may retaliate against anyone who made a complaint. The police/prosecution were allowed to get away with numerous acts of corruption and abuse such as an illegal interrogation which was not taped and access to lawyers were denied, feeding false information to the media, lying to Amanda she had HIV, committing perjury, destroying evidence, suppressing evidence and committing fraud. If the police/prosecution could get away with these acts, they would probably get away with complaints over mistreatment.

 

[Stacyhs]

Be that as it may, the fact remains Dalla Vedova, Knox' attorney, at no time (a) issued a formal complaint properly worded for his client and to the right person citing the correct sections and paragraphs to which it pertained, and (b) at no point even followed it up, to see how the complaint against the police was coming along and at what stage. It is no good only thinking about it in retrospect, some years after the court hearings have been and gone,

The fact remains that you keep repeating that Dalla Vedova did not do (a) or (b) above when you really don't know. You're just repeating what you've read at guilt websites like TJMK. If that's not the case, then you can quote and cite your source for your claims. Just remember, quoting another uncited source doesn't count.

and Dalla Vedova was wracking his brains to think of what else to add to the ECHR application, barring the kitchen sink.

Your psychic abilities declaring what Dalla Vedova was "wracking his brains" about are not a credible source.

Unfortunately, if you have bad service, and instead of complaining to the provider of that bad service, instead you go to your PR agency and the newspapers, that smacks of a publicity stunt and a lack of confidence that your 'complaint' has any merit, that you couldn't bring it up properly with the right people.

Again, quote/cite that Dalla Vedova did not "bring it up properly with the right people".

As for the claim that if you bring a complaint against the police in Italy, they will do you for criminal calumny, how likely is it that the police could bring a charge against an attorney representing a client? Name me one attorney who has had a Calunnia charged slapped on him or her for issuing a formal complaint about police misconduct?

Just how likely is it that a prosecutor would sue an attorney representing a client? Well...

Un'altra denuncia e stata sporta nel maggio 2015 dal pm Mignini e altri inquirenti contro l'avvocato maori e contro un giornalista.

Another lawsuit was filed in May 2015 by prosecutor Mignini and other investigators against lawyer Maori and against a journalist.

Meredith Kercher. Il delitto di Perugia. Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito,ANTONIO GIANGRANDE, pg 49


As for the police slapping a criminal lawsuit against someone who complained about them, I give you Mignini's and the police's defamation lawsuit against Amanda Knox. Which they lost.

 

[TomG]

True. But even Amanda has moved on. Closure is really up to you. Isn't it time to move on? I know Amanda is innocent. But I also know that Vixen is never going to be convinced. I could care less what she and a few die hard crazies think.

My argument for closure has always been that Meredith died as a result of a sequence of actual events that don't accommodate the judicial facts. If anyone is going to assert that K&S were involved then they have to develop a sustainable narrative and timeline to accommodate it with the judicial facts. IMO that's the hill that Vixen and her set need to be forced to fight or die on. I challenged Harry Rag on YouTube with this in order to resolve the case, and of course he couldn't do it. He could only do much the same as Vixen, i.e. offer a rag-bag of unconnectable half-truths, factoids, and judicial facts on random repeat with no hope of making any sense of it. The actual truth is that it can't be done. On that point alone I can walk away any time caso chiuso. In the meantime I just play if for fun.

Hoots

 

[Numbers]

In view of the fact Italy has a corrupt and dysfunctional justice system, is it credible that a complaint about police misconduct would have gone anywhere. Would making a complaint against corrupt and vindictive police/prosecutors be risky as they may retaliate against anyone who made a complaint. The police/prosecution were allowed to get away with numerous acts of corruption and abuse such as an illegal interrogation which was not taped and access to lawyers were denied, feeding false information to the media, lying to Amanda she had HIV, committing perjury, destroying evidence, suppressing evidence and committing fraud. If the police/prosecution could get away with these acts, they would probably get away with complaints over mistreatment.

As your post states, a formal complaint of police mistreatment, directed to the corrupt Italian police or prosecutor who fabricated the Knox- Sollecito case, would likely have further endangered Knox.

The ECHR, in its case law, has recognized that persons who have been mistreated by corrupt police or prison authorities, who are under the control of those authorities, must often delay official complaints until the time that they have a hearing before a judge or the actual trial.

However, it also should be understood that this whole issue of an alleged lack of an "official complaint" is a diversion from the reality of Knox's case and the reality of Italian law and ECHR case law, whether the issue is put forward by Italy or a guilter.

Under Italian law, there are FOUR types of "official complaint":

1. Denuncia: an oral or written statement by a private person reporting a crime to a police officer, prosecutor, or judge, in accordance with CPP Article 333. When the police officer or other authority receives the report, that authority fills out a report and forwards that report to a prosecutor or other legally responsible authority, in accordance with CPP Articles 331 and 337.

2. Querela: a written request for the prosecution of an act considered to be an offense under the law, identifying the specific law, in accordance with CPP Article 336. A police officer or prosecutor forwards the request to a prosecutor or other legally responsible authority, in accordance with CPP Articles 331 and 337.

3. Richiesta: a request to a prosecutor for the prosecution of an offense from an official with authority, in accordance with CPP Article 342. This request may be in follow-up to a denuncia or a querela or to a police report (CPP Article 331) to the prosecutor.

4. Istanza: a petition to a prosecutor from a victim requesting criminal proceedings - that is, specifically naming the crime(s) by CP article number(s) - submitted by the victim or the victim's lawyer using the official forms, in accordance with CPP Article 341.

Knox's first official complaint was in her Memoriale 1, delivered to the police several hours after the interrogation of 6 November 2007 ended. That complaint was in the form of a denuncia. There were repeated official complaints by Knox and her lawyers after that, for a total of SEVEN, by my count of the ECHR's statements in the judgment Knox v. Italy. None of these official complaints were acted upon by the Italian authorities, although they had a legal obligation to act under Italian law and Constitution.

Furthermore, the ECHR does not require that a person file an "official complaint" in order to obtain an investigation by the state of a credible claim of mistreatment under Convention Article 3. Lack of a state-defined "official complaint" does not mean that the state is free of its obligation under international law (the Convention and ECHR case law) to carry out an effective and independent investigation of a credible allegation of mistreatment by the authorities. Under ECHR case law, the state must carry out that effective and independent investigation when it becomes aware of the allegation of mistreatment. See: Guide on Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights, Prohibition of Torture, Paragraph 120, p. 27 - 28.

Sources:

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-iii/capo-i/art368.html

The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed. M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, and F. Scarpa, Wolters Kluwer Italia (C) 2014

https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Guide_Art_3_ENG.pdf
The section on the state obligation to investigate credible allegations of mistreatment begins with paragraph 113 on page 26.

 

[Stacyhs]

But, but, but...it wasn't properly worded by Knox's lawyers!

 

[Numbers]

But, but, but...it wasn't properly worded by Knox's lawyers!

There's nothing in the CPP about proper wording for a denuncia (crime report, CPP Article 333) by a private person or that person's lawyer. If the denunicia is made in writing by a private person, the only requirement is that it is dated and signed by that person. If given by a lawyer or other representative, that person must not only sign and date, but provide a statement that they are indeed the representative of the private person.

Knox's Memoriale 1 was thus a denuncia under CPP Article 333.

BTW, a police officer or prosecutor (or another public official with authority) who receives a denuncia is required under CPP Article 331 to report it to the appropriate prosecutor or other authority. It is a crime under CP Article 361* for a police officer or prosecutor and under CP Article 362** for any other public authority to NOT report a denuncia, including one received from a private party.

* Omessa denuncia di reato da parte del pubblico ufficiale

** Omessa denuncia da parte di un incaricato di pubblico servizio

See:

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-iii/capo-i/art361.html

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-iii/capo-i/art362.html

 

[Stacyhs]

There's nothing in the CPP about proper wording for a denuncia (crime report, CPP Article 333) by a private person or that person's lawyer. If the denunicia is made in writing by a private person, the only requirement is that it is dated and signed by that person. If given by a lawyer or other representative, that person must not only sign and date, but provide a statement that they are indeed the representative of the private person.

Knox's Memoriale 1 was thus a denuncia under CPP Article 333.

BTW, a police officer or prosecutor (or another public official with authority) who receives a denuncia is required under CPP Article 331 to report it to the appropriate prosecutor or other authority. It is a crime under CP Article 361* for a police officer or prosecutor and under CP Article 362** for any other public authority to NOT report a denuncia, including one received from a private party.

* Omessa denuncia di reato da parte del pubblico ufficiale

** Omessa denuncia da parte di un incaricato di pubblico servizio

See:

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-iii/capo-i/art361.html

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-iii/capo-i/art362.html

You know that, I know that. Try getting that through to certain PGP's.

 

[LondonJohn]

I see that Knox and Sollecito met up very recently on a trip to Gubbio (which was of course the intended destination of the day trip that they'd planned to take on 2nd November 2007, before events intervened....)

 

[Bill Williams]

I see that Knox and Sollecito met up very recently on a trip to Gubbio (which was of course the intended destination of the day trip that they'd planned to take on 2nd November 2007, before events intervened....)

Given how long it took for them to get there, I bet that's the last time they book through Travelocity.

 

[Stacyhs]

My, how the Daily Mail has changed its tune:

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito reunited: Fifteen years after the murder of Meredith Kercher, ex-lovers falsely jailed and cleared twice of Brit's tragic death meet again in Italy

Amanda Knox, 35, travelled to Italy to meet with her former lover after 15 years
The pair were falsely arrested and convicted twice of Meredith's murder
The real killer was Rudy Guede, who stabbed her 47 times after assaulting her

As pleased as I am that the DM has changed their reporting bias, their reporting is still not the best at fact checking. See if you can spot the errors in the story.

 

[Stacyhs]

Given how long it took for them to get there, I bet that's the last time they book through Travelocity.

 

[schmidt61]

My, how the Daily Mail has changed its tune:


As pleased as I am that the DM has changed their reporting bias, their reporting is still not the best at fact checking. See if you can spot the errors in the story.

While they say Guede killed Meredith which a good start he didn't stab her 47 times. I mean 15 years that lie still lingers.

 

[Stacyhs]

While they say Guede killed Meredith which a good start he didn't stab her 47 times. I mean 15 years that lie still lingers.

One error down, 5 more to go!

 

[Vixen]

There's nothing in the CPP about proper wording for a denuncia (crime report, CPP Article 333) by a private person or that person's lawyer. If the denunicia is made in writing by a private person, the only requirement is that it is dated and signed by that person. If given by a lawyer or other representative, that person must not only sign and date, but provide a statement that they are indeed the representative of the private person.

Knox's Memoriale 1 was thus a denuncia under CPP Article 333.

BTW, a police officer or prosecutor (or another public official with authority) who receives a denuncia is required under CPP Article 331 to report it to the appropriate prosecutor or other authority. It is a crime under CP Article 361* for a police officer or prosecutor and under CP Article 362** for any other public authority to NOT report a denuncia, including one received from a private party.

* Omessa denuncia di reato da parte del pubblico ufficiale

** Omessa denuncia da parte di un incaricato di pubblico servizio

See:

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-iii/capo-i/art361.html

https://www.brocardi.it/codice-penale/libro-secondo/titolo-iii/capo-i/art362.html

I get that there is no legislation that prescribes a pro-forma for issuing a complaint against police brutality. The point I was making is that you do need to make it clear it is a complaint and not just a generalised rant in a rambling letter.

For example, in the UK to get the financial ombudsman to look into any complaint about financial irregularities about its registered financial institutions you have to prove first that you gave the party the opportunity to investigate your complaint and to allow them redress (plus eight weeks to look into it). So you really do need to have a document that makes clear you are (a) making a formal complaint and (b) you now expect a formal investigation.

I cannot see that Dalla Vedova ever did any such thing.

 

[Vixen]

Given how long it took for them to get there, I bet that's the last time they book through Travelocity.

 

[Vixen]

While they say Guede killed Meredith which a good start he didn't stab her 47 times. I mean 15 years that lie still lingers.

Obviously a Public Relations press release designed to rehabilitate the gruesome duo into regular guy celebrities. Product placement. So, soon, the antics of this pair will be popping up more times than Sunshine Sachs pushing the Markles. YAWN.


So Knox and her weird husband went to Gubbio to meet up with Knife Boy 'to visit the kicking ground of Francis of Assisi'. Like suddenly Knox is a devoted Catholic who loves little animals.

 

[Numbers]

I get that there is no legislation that prescribes a pro-forma for issuing a complaint against police brutality. The point I was making is that you do need to make it clear it is a complaint and not just a generalised rant in a rambling letter.
For example, in the UK to get the financial ombudsman to look into any complaint about financial irregularities about its registered financial institutions you have to prove first that you gave the party the opportunity to investigate your complaint and to allow them redress (plus eight weeks to look into it). So you really do need to have a document that makes clear you are (a) making a formal complaint and (b) you now expect a formal investigation.
I cannot see that Dalla Vedova ever did any such thing.

1. Vixen, you do seem to be continually changing your point as each of your arguments is shown to be false.

2. Your repetition of the need for some type of "formal" complaint is false, as shown in Italian law and ECHR case law. Read the relevant texts; I have cited them quite a few times.

See, for example, paragraph 120 on pages 27 - 28 of the ECHR Guide on Article 3. It states that the obligation to investigate an instance of an alleged violation of Article 3 rests with the State (Italy, in this case). The authorities of the State must act on their own motion as soon as they become aware of such an allegation when the matter has come to their attention.

This case law and its application to Knox's case is also discussed in the ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy, paragraphs 123 - 139.

Sources:

https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Guide_Art_3_ENG.pdf

https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-189422

 

[Stacyhs]

Obviously a Public Relations press release designed to rehabilitate the gruesome duo into regular guy celebrities. Product placement. So, soon, the antics of this pair will be popping up more times than Sunshine Sachs pushing the Markles. YAWN.


So Knox and her weird husband went to Gubbio to meet up with Knife Boy 'to visit the kicking ground of Francis of Assisi'. Like suddenly Knox is a devoted Catholic who loves little animals.

Just when I thought that I could never be surprised again by anything you could say after all these years, you go and prove you can.