The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 31

[Rolfe]

Monochrome? Wouldn't "monotone" mean that they spoke in very boring voices?

 

[Bill Williams]

Monochrome? Wouldn't "monotone" mean that they spoke in very boring voices?

Facts are boring. Therefore factoids.

 

[LondonJohn]

Did they?? Yaaaaawn! source please.

Hoots

I think Sollecito said/wrote something to that effect. But it's easily understandable in the correct context: a large part of the reason why Sollecito ultimately cracked and allowed unlawful police coercion to force him to agree that Knox might have left his apartment on the evening/night of the 1st/2nd November is that he was stoned on the evening/night of 1st/2nd November (and periodically dozed/slept through that evening/night as a result). If he had been clear-headed and alert on that evening/night, he believes he would/could never have come anywhere close to agreeing that Knox might have left his apartment, because he would have had proper recall of the actual events on the evening/night of 1st/2nd November - which is that he and Knox spent that entire evening/night together in his apartment.

 

[Stacyhs]

Unfortunately, I cannot find the book. It may have been amongst the many books I had to give away to Oxfam when I relocated abroad.


(I seem to have seven other books about the case so it might still be somewhere in a storage box.)

I have the book, a hard copy and a digital copy that can be searched. Nowhere in the book does she say she was going to Italy "to bed as many men as possible". What she did say was:

Her [friend Brett] newest cause was to convince me to give casual sex a chance. I’d heard the same thing from other friends. It seemed to make some sense. I yearned to break down all the barriers that stood between me and adulthood. Sex was a big one—and the one that scared me the most. I’d bloomed late and didn’t kiss a guy until I was seventeen. I lost my virginity after I started college. Before Italy, I’d had sex with four guys, each in a relationship I considered meaningful, even though they had turned out to be short-lived. I left for Italy having decided I needed to change that. For me, sex was emotional, and I didn’t want it to be anymore—I hated feeling dependent on anyone else. I wanted sex to be about empowerment and pleasure, not about Does this person like me? Will he still like me tomorrow? I was young enough to think that insecurity disappeared with maturity. And I thought Italy would provide me the chance to see that happen.

(Knox, Amanda. Waiting to Be Heard (p. 14). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition)

THAT is what she said. She had sex with three guys IN ITALY including Raffaele....that's hardly having the "aim of going to Italy to bed as many men as possible." Since you've been presented with her quote and citation disproving your misrepresentation, please stop repeating it.

 

[Stacyhs]

Some guy, usually young, who believes he cannot get laid and it is the fault of women. So they tend to be misogynist, angry and have a sense of entitlement.

Correct. None of which applies to Raffaele. Therefore, please stop misrepresenting him as an "incel-type with personality disorders".

He'd only ever had sex once before.

False. He said he'd only had one sexual relationship before Amanda. He also said it had lasted about a month. I think it's safe to assume that during that month long relationship, they had sex more than once.

I’d only had one girlfriend before Amanda, another transplant from my home region of Apulia, on the Adriatic coast. We met at a birthday party a few months after I returned to Perugia from Germany. Neither of us knew entirely what we were doing—she was as inexperienced as I—but we muddled our way through our first time, both rather pleased to have got it out of the way. The relationship was short-lived; when my grandmother died, a month after we started seeing each other, I headed home for the funeral and broke up with her before I returned.

Sollecito, Raffaele; Gumbel, Andrew. Honor Bound: My Journey to Hell and Back with Amanda Knox . Gallery Books. Kindle Edition.

Again, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with what is actually in a book before telling us what is said in them.

 

[Stacyhs]

Having a racist belief (or sexist or ageist or dis-ablist, etc) has nothing at all to do with a person's own personal characteristics. This isn't a reflection on any individual person or a targetted insult to any one person, it is to do with group think. For example, the group think in the 1950's was that women should stay at home and look after the kids whilst the man should earn enough to support them. Other group think could be, say, the Russians. That is not to say that, individually, they are not all terribly nice people. What I find odd is that here we have a debate on this particular murder case and far from wanting any insight to it, we have people sticking rigidly to a world view that just is not true (Guede was not itinerant, he had a bedsit.) Why the need to believe in something that is not true, other than to reflect a mindset that prefers a shallow cliché? An inquisitive person should be only too delighted to get to the heart of a matter. Instead, there is one particular person who actually enjoys deliberately stating something they must consciously know is a lie. Why? To support some banal bigoted belief, in other words they could not care less who did it they just want to preserve a closed mind like some shrewish landlady with arms crossed and fag hanging from mouth, "You'll not get the better of me, chum". Why anyone should get upset in having their false premises pointed out beats me. Why bother to debate at all?

I absolutely agree that "there is one particular person" who fits the description detailed in the highlighted part above. It's amazing how some people can be so self-unaware and oblivious to evidence, isn't it? For example, here in the US, we have millions of people who believe the 2020 presidential election was rigged when no evidence supports it. None. Sixty court cases, some as high as the Supreme Court (with three Trump nominated judges), brought by election deniers and not one upheld. You'd think that would convince them the election wasn't rigged. Instead, the election deniers just accuse all the judges of being corrupt, partisan, or bought off. The ability some people have to gaslight themselves never ceases to amaze me.

So holding a sexist or racist belief doesn't actually make a person a sexist **** or a racist. It is a lot to do with the media they read, their standard of education and their willingness to be open-minded and to have insight into where their erroneous beliefs come from.

Thankfully, most people here are not at all like that.

Tell me, Vixen, who here is like that?

 

[Welshman]

Correct. None of which applies to Raffaele. Therefore, please stop misrepresenting him as an "incel-type with personality disorders".



False. He said he'd only had one sexual relationship before Amanda. He also said it had lasted about a month. I think it's safe to assume that during that month long relationship, they had sex more than once.


Sollecito, Raffaele; Gumbel, Andrew. Honor Bound: My Journey to Hell and Back with Amanda Knox . Gallery Books. Kindle Edition.

Again, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with what is actually in a book before telling us what is said in them.

What we have here is yet another example of the disgusting hypocrisy PGP show when they attack Amanda and Raffaele for lying. PGP attack Amanda and Raffaele for telling lies in their books when lying about they have written in their books. If the case against Amanda and Raffaele was such a slam dunk, why is it necessary to lie about things such as what Amanda and Raffaele have written in their books?

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by bagels View Post
She gives Amanda an alibi not Raff

But yes I'm sure she was lying to the police and the court in a murder case to help her casual acquaintance of 1 month. But she should have said she went in at 9pm and they were all settled in watching a movie/eating dinner. She does technically leave just enough time for her to leave and the kids to immediately recognize their opportunity and fly out the door to go attack Meredith, stumbling into Rudy along the way and adding this virtual stranger to the posse for no reason.

Well, fact is, both Knox and Sollecito switched off their phones at 18:45 or thereabouts.

True. But how is that evidence of their involvement in murder or Popovic's sworn statement being perjury?

Popovic probably didn't give her alibi for the pair much thought at the time. Many people will help out a friend in trouble without realising the possible consequences. Even with Popovic's alibi, it doesn't absolve the pair.

Popovic was an acquaintance, not a good 'friend', who knew at the time of her statement to the police (Nov. 12) that the pair had been arrested for murder. Since both were in jail, do you think they...or the Sollecito family... somehow contacted her in Serbia and talked her into giving a false deposition to the police? And in doing so, she would not have realized that a false, sworn deposition would have serious consequences? Here, pull the other one.

Popovic also stated that Amanda , whom she described as "cheerful" and "smiling a lot", invited her in which suggests Amanda was not planning on going anywhere. Yet you want us to believe that she just spontaneously decided at almost 9:00 on a cold night to go back to the cottage in order to...what?

Popovic's statement may not absolve the pair but it certainly shows they had no plans that evening to go anywhere except to help her later that night to get her mom's suitcase. I guess it was just a spontaneous, out of the blue decision to go home, picking up Guede whom she just happened to bump into, and kill her roommate for no reason.

Unsurprisingly, I notice you fail to acknowledge that your claim that the "triangulation of three cell towers" placed her in Grimana when she texted Lumumba. As I quoted and cited, the cell tower used serviced Raffaele's apartment.

 

[Welshman]

Popovic, like Sollecito's father, gave Sollecito an alibi and I believe she was - misconceived - trying to help him out as a friend of hers. It backfired on Sollecito when he tried to claim compensation. She claimed she went to ask him to give her a lift to pick up a case sent by her aunt. It turned out her aunt's case wasn't on the bus after all. So a typical example of a story which was supposed to have happened but then conveniently didn't actually happen!

PGP have shown industrial scale hypocrisy when attacking Amanda and Raffaele for lying. One way they have shown hypocrisy is that PGP don't have issue with lying but how lies are used. PGP only object to lying when it works in Amanda and Raffaele's favour but lying is acceptable when it works against Amanda and Raffaele. Attacking Popovic for supposedly lying is an example. If Popovic did lie, Vixen finds this lie unacceptable because it gave Amanda and Raffaele an alibi and worked in Amanda and Raffaele's favour. Vixen defends the testimony of witnesses such as Curalto, Quintavelle and Kokami who lied because their testimony worked against Amanda and Raffaele and therefore their lies are acceptable.

 

[Numbers]

Read the final motivations report. Marasca-Bruno claim Knox named Lumumba to cover up for Guede.

Vixen, please provide the exact quote from the Marasca CSC panel motivations report that supports your statement.

The English translation of the Marasca motivations report text relating to the calunnia against Lumumba attributed to Knox begins with the overall statement:

Another element against her is, certainly, the calumny against Lumumba, which has already been referred to.

It is not understood, however, what pushed the young American to make these serious accusations.

The motivation report goes on to state as hypotheses:

. The hypothesis that she did so {make the statements} to escape the psychological pressure of the investigators appears extremely fragile....

...the calumny in question also represents circumstantial evidence against the appellant in so much as it could be considered as an initiative to cover for Guede....

There is no conclusion in the motivation report that states that Knox named Lumumba to cover up for Guede, and no conclusion that Knox knew the Guede had committed the crimes against Kercher.

The Marasca CSC panel motivation report uses these hypotheses to avoid reaching the obvious conclusion that Knox was coerced by the police and Mignini to make her statements against Lumumba. According to the ECHR final judgment in Knox v. Italy, Italy had violated Knox's rights under the European Convention in obtaining her statements against Lumumba, so contrary to the Marasca CSC motivation report's false and unconstitutional statement*, Knox's conviction for calunnia against Lumumba must be dismissed by Italy in accordance with its solemn obligations under the Council of Europe - European Convention treaty.

*

In fact, an eventual pronouncement by the European Court {ECHR} in favour of the same Knox, in the sense of a hoped-for recognition of her unorthodox treatment by the investigators, would not be able, in any way, to undermine the internal [Italian Court] judgment, nor open the prospect for a revision of the verdict and sentence....

Source:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/files/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/marasca-bruno-motivations-report.pdf

See pages 49 and 50, and pages 22 and 23.

 

[Numbers]

I meant the US posters on this list, whose main point seems to be that there is no way Knox would associate with Guede, when in fact, he was far nearer her age than Sollecito was.

Unlike Knox and Sollecito, he had no police record and no police cautions.

The FOAK-ers have invented a story that Guede was an itinerant drifter with a record for burglary as long as your arm, which IMV is based on trying to construct a racist stereoptype based on his skin colour.

Vixen, please provide (quote) the exact posts with their contents that support your statement: the ... posters ... whose main point seems to be that there is no way Knox would associate with Guede.

 

[Vixen]

Edited by sarge: 

removed personalization and off-topic content

Fact is Knox read Patrik's message at 20:17 and replied at 20:35. It is an objective, impartial, recorded, logged scientific fact that Knox replied whilst near the cottage.

It is another fact that this mast has nothing to do with the mast supplying via Garibaldi, where Sollecito had a bedsit.

393492000200 393387195723 3484673590 01/11/2007 20:35:48 1 6 356403016662130 PG - PERUGIA - Via T. Berardi, Sett. 7

From Police Telephone Log Records

The Murder of Meredith Kercher Net.


Why lie Knox was elsewhere, when she cannot have been?

 

[Vixen]

This thread is genuinely turning into an almost carbon copy of another series of threads. It's a little scary.

Knox says quite openly in her book and her interviews promoting it she wanted to experiment with sex as much as possible in Italy. This is neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so.


The fact she 'only had three men' within the two months or so she was there, is neither here nor there.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, please provide (quote) the exact posts with their contents that support your statement: the ... posters ... whose main point seems to be that there is no way Knox would associate with Guede.

How long have you got?


Surely you have been following the thread for several years now?

This is a pet theory of Bagels and Stacyhs in particular.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, please provide the exact quote from the Marasca CSC panel motivations report that supports your statement.

The English translation of the Marasca motivations report text relating to the calunnia against Lumumba attributed to Knox begins with the overall statement:



The motivation report goes on to state as hypotheses:



There is no conclusion in the motivation report that states that Knox named Lumumba to cover up for Guede, and no conclusion that Knox knew the Guede had committed the crimes against Kercher.

The Marasca CSC panel motivation report uses these hypotheses to avoid reaching the obvious conclusion that Knox was coerced by the police and Mignini to make her statements against Lumumba. According to the ECHR final judgment in Knox v. Italy, Italy had violated Knox's rights under the European Convention in obtaining her statements against Lumumba, so contrary to the Marasca CSC motivation report's false and unconstitutional statement*, Knox's conviction for calunnia against Lumumba must be dismissed by Italy in accordance with its solemn obligations under the Council of Europe - European Convention treaty.

*

Source:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/files/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/marasca-bruno-motivations-report.pdf

See pages 49 and 50, and pages 22 and 23.

I thought you were familiar with the case?

Knox only, furthermore, regarding the crime mentioned in point F), within the meaning of article 81 cpv, 368, clause 2, and 61 n. 2 of the penal code, because, with multiple actions within the same criminal plan, knowing that he was innocent, with statements filed during declaration to the Flying Squad and the Police of Perugia on the 6th of November 2007, she falsely blamed Diya Lumumba called “Patrick” for the murder of the young Meredith Kercher, all of this to obtain impunity for everyone and particularly for Guede Rudi Hermann, colored as is Lumumba; in Perugia, during the night between the 5th and the 6th of November 2007.

<snip>

Another element against her is certainly constituted by the false accusations [calunnia] against Mr. Lumumba, afore-mentioned above. It is not understandable, in fact, what reason could have driven the young woman to produce such serious accusations. The theory that she did so in order to escape psychological pressure from detectives seems extremely fragile, given that the woman [47] could not fail to realize that such accusations directed against her boss would turn out to be false very soon, given that, as she knew very well, Mr. Lumumba had no relationship with Ms. Kercher nor with the Via della Pergola house. Furthermore, the ability to present an ironclad alibi would have allowed Lumumba to obtain release and subsequently the dropping of charges. However, the said calunnia is another circumstantial element against the current appellant, insofar as it can be considered a strategy in order to cover up for Mr. Guede, whom she had an interest to protect because of fear of retaliatory accusations against her. This is confirmed by the fact that Mr. Lumumba, like Mr. Guede, is a man of colour, hence the indication of the first one would be safe in the event that the latter could have been seen by someone while entering or exiting the apartment.

Marasca- Bruno Motivations Report


Does that help?

 

[Numbers]

....

According to the ECHR final judgment in Knox v. Italy, Italy had violated Knox's rights under the European Convention in obtaining her statements against Lumumba, so contrary to the Marasca CSC motivation report's false and unconstitutional statement*, Knox's conviction for calunnia against Lumumba must be dismissed by Italy in accordance with its solemn obligations under the Council of Europe - European Convention treaty.

*

In fact, an eventual pronouncement by the European Court {ECHR} in favour of the same Knox, in the sense of a hoped-for recognition of her unorthodox treatment by the investigators, would not be able, in any way, to undermine the internal [Italian Court] judgment, nor open the prospect for a revision of the verdict and sentence....

Source:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/files/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/marasca-bruno-motivations-report.pdf

See pages 49 and 50, and pages 22 and 23.

Article 10, clause 1 of the Italian Constitution states:

The Italian legal system conforms to the generally acknowledged provisions of international law.

I believe Article 10, clause 1 requires the courts to obey the provisions of treaties to which Italy is a signatory. Such treaties, including the Council of Europe - ECHR treaty, are certainly generally acknowledged provisions of international law, and certainly apply to Italy, as acknowledged by Italy's agreement to obey the terms of the treaty.

The Marasca CSC panel motivation report statement quoted appears to be an attempt to foreclose the possibility of the Italian judicial system system from fulfilling its obligations under the Council of Europe - ECHR treaty in Knox's case, based upon false statements including the following (page 23):

.... {Knox's alleged statements were} confirmed in a memorandum ["memoriale"] bearing her signature, at a moment when the said accuser was alone with herself and her conscience, in conditions of objective tranquillity, free from external conditioning; and were even repeated, some time later, during the validation of Lumumba's arrest, before the GIP [judge of preliminary investigation] who initiated the proceedings.

 

[Numbers]

I thought you were familiar with the case?

Marasca- Bruno Motivations Report


Does that help?

You apparently misunderstand the motivation report, possibly due to the mistranslation of the Italian text you present.

The relevant original Italian text begins:

Non è dato comprendere, infatti, quale ragione abbia potuto spingere la giovane statunitense a quelle gravi accuse. L'ipotesi che l'abbia fatto per sottrarsi alla pressione psicologica degli inquirenti appare assai fragile, ....

This translates to (Google translation with Collins Reverso for help):

It is not clear, in fact, what reason could have led the young American to those serious accusations. The hypothesis that she did it to escape the psychological pressure of the investigators appears very fragile, ....

The next paragraph, properly translated, notes that Knox's statement could be to an extent be considered circumstantial evidence; it does not claim that the circumstantial evidence can be the basis for a judicial fact:

Nondimeno, anche la calunnia in questione si risolve in elemento indiziante a carico dell'odierna ricorrente nella misura in cui possa ritenersi iniziativa volta a coprire il Guede, che lei avrebbe avuto tutto l'interesse a proteggere per tema di ritorsive accuse nei suoi confronti. .... per l'ipotesi che l'altro potesse essere stato visto da qualcuno entrare od uscire dall'appartamento.

However, also {as a hypothesis} the calunnia {malicious accusation} in question is resolved into a circumstantial element against the present applicant to the extent that it can be considered an initiative aimed at covering up Guede, whom she would have had every interest to protect on grounds of retaliatory accusations against her. .... for the hypothesis {possibility} that the other {Guede} could have been seen by someone entering or leaving the apartment.

Since the Marasca CSC panel verdict was that Knox and Sollecito were not guilty (acquitted) of the murder/rape charges, the hypothesis of Knox committing calunnia against Lumumba as a cover-up for Guede is logically inconsistent. This does not appear to be explicitly stated in this section of the motivation report, which is intended as a rebuttal of various hypotheses of guilty, but it is a clear inference from the verdict. What is explicitly stated is that, for the Marasca CSC panel, "It is not clear, in fact, what reason could have led the young American to those serious accusations."

Source of the Italian text:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/files/wp-...15-09-07-marasca-bruno-report-italian-ocr.pdf

 

[Numbers]

How long have you got?


Surely you have been following the thread for several years now?

This is a pet theory of Bagels and Stacyhs in particular.

Vixen, I have indeed been a participant in this thread for a number of years.

I don't recall any post that that expressed the view which you claim except your own.

Vixen, please refresh my memory by quoting from one or more such posts in support of your statement: the ... posters ... whose main point seems to be that there is no way Knox would associate with Guede.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Knox says quite openly in her book and her interviews promoting it she wanted to experiment with sex as much as possible in Italy. This is neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so.


The fact she 'only had three men' within the two months or so she was there, is neither here nor there.

Where in the book? Give page numbers.

Which interviews? Can you link to them, either videos or transcripts?

 

[Vixen]

You apparently misunderstand the motivation report, possibly due to the mistranslation of the Italian text you present.

The relevant original Italian text begins:



This translates to (Google translation with Collins Reverso for help):



The next paragraph, properly translated, notes that Knox's statement could be to an extent be considered circumstantial evidence; it does not claim that the circumstantial evidence can be the basis for a judicial fact:





Since the Marasca CSC panel verdict was that Knox and Sollecito were not guilty (acquitted) of the murder/rape charges, the hypothesis of Knox committing calunnia against Lumumba as a cover-up for Guede is logically inconsistent. This does not appear to be explicitly stated in this section of the motivation report, which is intended as a rebuttal of various hypotheses of guilty, but it is a clear inference from the verdict. What is explicitly stated is that, for the Marasca CSC panel, "It is not clear, in fact, what reason could have led the young American to those serious accusations."

Source of the Italian text:

http://amandaknoxcase.com/files/wp-...15-09-07-marasca-bruno-report-italian-ocr.pdf

That in not correct. Knox was not acquitted of the serious offence of Criminal Calunnia and remains convicted of it today.

What is notable about Marasca-Bruno's theory about why Knox accused Lumumba, is that it does not come from facts found at any previous courts. In other words, this is an original theory by Marasca-Bruno. That is, they believe Knox named Lumumba to cover up for Guede, for reasons they state in the motivations court.

None of the US press mentioned that bit, I bet.