The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 31

[Vixen]

From the article you linked to:
"The internet teems with those who are reluctant to part with their beloved tale of an unspeakably depraved creature disguised as a pretty US student. They are determined to cling to the idea that there is something twisted and cruel about her. No wonder. The demolition of this idea suggests there is something twisted and cruel about them, or at least that they have been markedly credulous and prurient."
That perfectly describes the pathology we have and are continuing to witness.

A columnist is someone paid to express an opinion. It doesn't have to fulfil any type of fact-checking. They are paid to be opinionated. Likewise, just as the Murdoch press has one view of a situation, the GUARDIAN will take an opposing view. Thus GUARDIAN writers such as the late Deborah Orr and Simon Hattenstone took the view of Knox being a railroaded innocent and other writers take the view of any criticism of say, Meghan Markle, as mere racism, to set them apart from the likes of other British press. It's refreshing to see alternative views but a column writer is just someone paid to be a bigot, in effect (just read Richard Littlejohn, Piers Morgan, and who's the guy with the eyebrows, who bangs on about the joys of Brexit yet lives abroad in a sunny tax haven).


Deborah Orr no doubt tilted her article to fit the GUARDIAN ethos of trendy liberals.

 

[TomG]

No, I don't believe it. Criminals claiming 'not guilty' have to concoct lies for their defence. Guede is hardly likely to come out and admit his guilt, any more than Knox or Sollecito will. Why don't I believe him? Because if he really was a friend of Kercher he should be able to prove it. Mez had just come home after an evening with her English compatriots. How likely is she going to pick up some guy on the way home, even if she knows him from the local pub? In addition, if it was true he and Mez were making out when Knox arrived home and picked a fight, he would surely take the side of Kercher and not Knox.

IMV Massei, Micheli and Nencini were on the right track, albeit with some variation in their construction of events, which is to be expected given nobody was actually present to witness what happened. Knox was on her way to work when she got a message from Patrik not to come in as business was quiet. She bumped into Guede in Plaza Grimana and invited him abck to the cottage, or he invited himself. Whatever the sequence, at some poitn, Guede, Knox and Kercher were together in the cottage and probably Sollecito came by, too. A row broke out between Knox and Kercher. The fact Guede took Knox' side and held Mez' hands behind her back (his DNA is on the cuffs of her jumper) whilst Knox and Sollecito tormented her with knives proves he was no friend of Mez'.

Motive, I believe a young adult thrill killling. Sollecito because he was into 'extreme experiences' and knives and Knox because she was upset by Mez excluding her from her circle of friends and possibly accusing her of the theft of her rent money. Sollecito had in his apartment an anime comic whci recreated a Halloween scene of an ancient female vampire, which showed the vampire being slayed, naked, with three pairs of feet standing around her. Knox had spent Halloween alone, tramping the streets looking for friends whilst Mez was out having fun with her group of friends. I believe this triggered Knox who had been subjected to exclusion at school and by her own account subsequently had to hang out with the freaks and 'rejects'. This was a case of history repeating itself, with Sollecito himself a loner, incel-type with personality disorder problems, which were the despair off his father, who packed him off to a boarding school for the orphans of doctors. Sollecito bitterly resented this as he blamed his fahter's affair for the suicide of his mother, hence his retreat into drug experimentation and anti-social attitude (love of Marilyn Manson for example). So the three of them stoned out of the heads on drugs (see Kokomani's testimony) play acted Mez as a vampire to be slain (as she still had blood makeup on her chin earlier that afternoon). English girls can be quite haughty so I am sure this stuck in Knox' craw.

So, as is apparent, Guede, like the woman in the Manson gang, was equally guilty by holding the victims arms behind her back, and indeed had his trousers drenched in her blood.

The fact Knox and Sollecito did come back later to clean up the mess and try to stage a burglary, all fits in with the chronology the prosecution lawyers came up with. I don't believe it was an argument about cleanliness. That wouldn't lead to torture and sadism. So i disagree with Nencini there. However, as motive is not required to prove an aggravated murder, Nencini probably went for the lesser motive. Massei's belief in a sex game 'gone wrong' was likely nearer the mark.


What Americans find impossible to believe is that Knox would be friends with an African. However, it is a fact they knew each other, had exchanged pleasantries in the night club and had shared a joint at the cottage.

Ha-ha! You like fantasy fiction. You forgot to mention that Jovana Popovic's personal encounter with Amanda at Raffaele's flat at 20.40 was a purely hallucinogenic experience. Since you like a good yarn, you'll no doubt appreciate this

Meredith arrives home to VDP at 20.56. No one else is in the flat. Rudy has been monitoring the flat for a potential burglary and sees Meredith arrive home. Rudy knocks at the door and explains that he was expecting the guys below to be at home but the place is in darkness. He explains very politely that he needs to use the toilet and could he be allowed in. Recognising him, Meredith does so. Rudy is enamoured with Meredith, sensing an opportunity to take advantage of her. After all she DID let him in. As the conversation becomes more demanding, Meredith realises she has been tricked and thinks that the best way out is to think on her feet rather than be raped. She does so by saying "listen I'll give you what you want, just take it easy and let me get condoms to keep us both safe, I'll see if the other girls have any in their bedrooms. In the meantime you can use the toilet and shower if you please." Rudy is bluffed and now placated goes to use the toilet in a leisurely manner, listening to songs on his I-pod as he does so. He believes he is in control of the situation.

Meredith is "quite strong" (Massei) and physically robust, so she seizes the opportunity to go out grab a rock and stage a break-in in Filomena's room. Rudy hears all the noise and rushes out to investigate. Meredith now confronts Rudy thinking she has the upper hand saying "No I DIDN'T LET YOU IN, you broke the window to burglarise the place, you then tried to attack and rape me, but I have a solution. You can go now and I won't call the cops until after you leave, all I will do is report a break-in and tell the cops that I don't know who did it. or you can stay here and get caught red-handed."

Meredith thinks she has the upper hand by giving Rudy an exit strategy, but she has miscalculated. The enraged Rudy doesn't believe her, thinking he is being framed for burglary. He grabs Meredith saying "No we're going to do things my way" He drags her into her bedroom where he he sexually assaults and murders Meredith.

Ok. It's total nonsense but at least I admit that it's total nonsense, while you seem to actually believe your own baloney. What a hoot!

Hoot-hoot

 

[whoanellie]

He'd only ever had sex once before.

They either had too much sex or not enough sex. Never just the right amount of sex.

 

[bagels]

What Americans find impossible to believe is that Knox would be friends with an African. However, it is a fact they knew each other, had exchanged pleasantries in the night club and had shared a joint at the cottage.

Not just any African. A South African. And you know how they are. Just look at Elon Musk.

 

[TomG]

Not just any African. A South African. And you know how they are. Just look at Elon Musk.

If Amanda was so chummy with Rudy, why did she apparently describe him at 23.00 at the questura as the "South African young man, black, short, who plays basketball in the Piazza Grimana court, who would have, in one occasion, frequented the house." according to Ficarra's memo? Looks like an attempt to implicate him to me. If that's not Rudy, who was it?

Hoots

 

[Bill Williams]

IMV Massei, Micheli and Nencini were on the right track, albeit with some variation in their construction of events, which is to be expected given nobody was actually present to witness what happened.......

Motive, I believe a young adult thrill killling. Sollecito because he was into 'extreme experiences' and knives and Knox because she was upset by Mez excluding her from her circle of friends and possibly accusing her of the theft of her rent money. Sollecito had in his apartment an anime comic whci recreated a Halloween scene of an ancient female vampire, which showed the vampire being slayed, naked, with three pairs of feet standing around her. Knox had spent Halloween alone, tramping the streets looking for friends whilst Mez was out having fun with her group of friends. I believe this triggered Knox.....

The one thing missing from this is evidence.

If possession of those sorts of materials was triggering for Sollecito, then most college campuses in the US, Britain and Europe would be killing fields. What you're missing is not evidence, before or since, that either participated in any sort of illegal activity. You are perhaps entitled to your bizarre beliefs, but you're not entitled just to make things up.

What Americans find impossible to believe is that Knox would be friends with an African. However, it is a fact they knew each other, had exchanged pleasantries in the night club and had shared a joint at the cottage.

"Americans" do not find that hard to believe. It is bizarre in the extreme that you would make such a prejudiced statement, all in the name of calling out prejudice.

In some ways it is good that you post at length as to your 'IMV's'. It shows others how bizarre belief in guilt for those two is.

One further note - you call the various convicting judges possessing, "some variation in their construction of events, which is to be expected given nobody was actually present to witness what happened......."

You should perhaps reread what you just wrote. They more than possessed a variation, even the convicting courts contradicted one another in trying to construct things, trying to put a timeline together which sustained guilt.

It cannot be done.

Indeed, when the Chieffi 2013 ISC panel annulled the first exoneration, one of the reasons they did that was because neither the Hellmann nor the Massei court took the "sex-game gone wrong" theory seriously.

That motive had been the core of the Mignini-Comodi prosecution in 2009. Once the 2013 ISC ordered the next court, the Nencini court, to look into the "sex-game gone wrong", even that subsequent court ignored it. It replaced 'motive' with yet another in a series of revolving door motives.... basically the one you said was now your belief.

Again, there is absolutely no evidence typing either AK or RS to the crime - as the 2015 Supreme court pointed out.

An objectively wavering process, whose oscillations, however, are also the result
of clamorous failures, or investigative “amnesia” and of culpable omissions of
investigative activity. Had they been carried out these would, in all probability, have
led to a picture if not of certainty, at least of tranquil reliability pointing either
towards guilt or innocence of today’s accused. Such a scenario, intrinsically
contradictory, constitutes in itself already a first and eloquent signal of an investigation that was never capable of reaching a conclusion beyond any reasonable doubt.​

So, you are perhaps entitled to have your beliefs. But that's what they are.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

They either had too much sex or not enough sex. Never just the right amount of sex.

If lack of sex made one a sociopathic incel killer, than I would have been doomed at that age.

Of course, Amanda I guess was a sex-crazed slut killer, so I'm not sure what to think.

Vixen does spin a good yarn, though.

 

[Bill Williams]

A columnist is someone paid to express an opinion. It doesn't have to fulfil any type of fact-checking. They are paid to be opinionated. Likewise, just as the Murdoch press has one view of a situation, the GUARDIAN will take an opposing view. Thus GUARDIAN writers such as the late Deborah Orr and Simon Hattenstone took the view of Knox being a railroaded innocent and other writers take the view of any criticism of say, Meghan Markle, as mere racism, to set them apart from the likes of other British press. It's refreshing to see alternative views but a column writer is just someone paid to be a bigot, in effect (just read Richard Littlejohn, Piers Morgan, and who's the guy with the eyebrows, who bangs on about the joys of Brexit yet lives abroad in a sunny tax haven).


Deborah Orr no doubt tilted her article to fit the GUARDIAN ethos of trendy liberals.

Wow. It's rare to actually read the tripe, tripe actually spelled out. Your view is, that someone is paid to be 'opinionated', which makes them exempt from any sort of fact-checking.

If I am following this, which I'm not, that means that journalists should just write whatever the hell they want.

I dunno, I'm a sucker for fact-checking. There have been times when someone has demonstrated that my own opinions, some of them do not fit any version of 'the facts' whatsoever. What have I attempted to do as a result? I've attempted to revise my opinions, rather than bleat that my opinions are valid, simply on my ability to state them.

This post should be pinned to the top of any thread to do with the Kercher murder, and how it went off the rails. The more one believes that fact-checking is optional, the more someone will believe in guilt.

Got it. Yet ISF is a 'skeptics site'. Gee, I wonder what the basis of skeptical thought is?

 

[Vixen]

Ha-ha! You like fantasy fiction. You forgot to mention that Jovana Popovic's personal encounter with Amanda at Raffaele's flat at 20.40 was a purely hallucinogenic experience. Since you like a good yarn, you'll no doubt appreciate this

Meredith arrives home to VDP at 20.56. No one else is in the flat. Rudy has been monitoring the flat for a potential burglary and sees Meredith arrive home. Rudy knocks at the door and explains that he was expecting the guys below to be at home but the place is in darkness. He explains very politely that he needs to use the toilet and could he be allowed in. Recognising him, Meredith does so. Rudy is enamoured with Meredith, sensing an opportunity to take advantage of her. After all she DID let him in. As the conversation becomes more demanding, Meredith realises she has been tricked and thinks that the best way out is to think on her feet rather than be raped. She does so by saying "listen I'll give you what you want, just take it easy and let me get condoms to keep us both safe, I'll see if the other girls have any in their bedrooms. In the meantime you can use the toilet and shower if you please." Rudy is bluffed and now placated goes to use the toilet in a leisurely manner, listening to songs on his I-pod as he does so. He believes he is in control of the situation.

Meredith is "quite strong" (Massei) and physically robust, so she seizes the opportunity to go out grab a rock and stage a break-in in Filomena's room. Rudy hears all the noise and rushes out to investigate. Meredith now confronts Rudy thinking she has the upper hand saying "No I DIDN'T LET YOU IN, you broke the window to burglarise the place, you then tried to attack and rape me, but I have a solution. You can go now and I won't call the cops until after you leave, all I will do is report a break-in and tell the cops that I don't know who did it. or you can stay here and get caught red-handed."

Meredith thinks she has the upper hand by giving Rudy an exit strategy, but she has miscalculated. The enraged Rudy doesn't believe her, thinking he is being framed for burglary. He grabs Meredith saying "No we're going to do things my way" He drags her into her bedroom where he he sexually assaults and murders Meredith.

Ok. It's total nonsense but at least I admit that it's total nonsense, while you seem to actually believe your own baloney. What a hoot!

Hoot-hoot

Big holes in that. For a start, it would have been totally out of character for Mez to smash her own windows, when she had homework to do (not realising next day was a Bank Holiday [day of the dead, or All Souls]).

If he was a rapist, strange that the rape was never consummated.

 

[Vixen]

If Amanda was so chummy with Rudy, why did she apparently describe him at 23.00 at the questura as the "South African young man, black, short, who plays basketball in the Piazza Grimana court, who would have, in one occasion, frequented the house." according to Ficarra's memo? Looks like an attempt to implicate him to me. If that's not Rudy, who was it?

Hoots

She probably assumed he was South African because he supported South Africa against England in the Rugby World Cup final earlier. As a basketball player, Guede possibly looked short in comparison with his ream mates. If she wanted to implicate him, why not just name him?

As Marasca-Bruno observed, Knox covered up for Guede, just as Guede covered up for Knox in his phone call to his friend Benedetti. Partners in crime cover up for each other. Just as Sollecito covered uo for Knox (but then threw her under the bus at the second interrogation, saying she had made him lie for her).

 

[Vixen]

The one thing missing from this is evidence.

If possession of those sorts of materials was triggering for Sollecito, then most college campuses in the US, Britain and Europe would be killing fields. What you're missing is not evidence, before or since, that either participated in any sort of illegal activity. You are perhaps entitled to your bizarre beliefs, but you're not entitled just to make things up.


"Americans" do not find that hard to believe. It is bizarre in the extreme that you would make such a prejudiced statement, all in the name of calling out prejudice.

In some ways it is good that you post at length as to your 'IMV's'. It shows others how bizarre belief in guilt for those two is.

One further note - you call the various convicting judges possessing, "some variation in their construction of events, which is to be expected given nobody was actually present to witness what happened......."

You should perhaps reread what you just wrote. They more than possessed a variation, even the convicting courts contradicted one another in trying to construct things, trying to put a timeline together which sustained guilt.

It cannot be done.

Indeed, when the Chieffi 2013 ISC panel annulled the first exoneration, one of the reasons they did that was because neither the Hellmann nor the Massei court took the "sex-game gone wrong" theory seriously.

That motive had been the core of the Mignini-Comodi prosecution in 2009. Once the 2013 ISC ordered the next court, the Nencini court, to look into the "sex-game gone wrong", even that subsequent court ignored it. It replaced 'motive' with yet another in a series of revolving door motives.... basically the one you said was now your belief.

Again, there is absolutely no evidence typing either AK or RS to the crime - as the 2015 Supreme court pointed out.

​

So, you are perhaps entitled to have your beliefs. But that's what they are.

Objectively and scientifically, their DNA and footprints were found at the scene, and in Knox' case, her blood mixed in with Mez' in the bathroom, plus in Philomena's room. Plus they gave police false alibis.

 

[Vixen]

If lack of sex made one a sociopathic incel killer, than I would have been doomed at that age.

Of course, Amanda I guess was a sex-crazed slut killer, so I'm not sure what to think.

Vixen does spin a good yarn, though.

She said in her book that her aim in going to Italy was to bed as many men as possible. It is also assumed she went because there was a drug scene there.

 

[Vixen]

Wow. It's rare to actually read the tripe, tripe actually spelled out. Your view is, that someone is paid to be 'opinionated', which makes them exempt from any sort of fact-checking.

If I am following this, which I'm not, that means that journalists should just write whatever the hell they want.

I dunno, I'm a sucker for fact-checking. There have been times when someone has demonstrated that my own opinions, some of them do not fit any version of 'the facts' whatsoever. What have I attempted to do as a result? I've attempted to revise my opinions, rather than bleat that my opinions are valid, simply on my ability to state them.

This post should be pinned to the top of any thread to do with the Kercher murder, and how it went off the rails. The more one believes that fact-checking is optional, the more someone will believe in guilt.

Got it. Yet ISF is a 'skeptics site'. Gee, I wonder what the basis of skeptical thought is?

Instead of going with the spin, I did my own research into the case and I am afraid it doesn't look good for either Knox, Sollecito or Guede.

 

[Vixen]

After the crime, both Knox and Sollecito said they would never take drugs again.

Make of that what you will.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

She said in her book that her aim in going to Italy was to bed as many men as possible.

Wow, a college age girl going abroad to get laid. Scandalous, what has happened to the world?

It is also assumed she went because there was a drug scene there.

Yeah, that seems to be common with your posts.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

After the crime, both Knox and Sollecito said they would never take drugs again.

Make of that what you will.

If it were me, I would have learned that minor indiscretions will be turned into hyperbolic character assassinations by witless, demented accusers who ignore facts in favor of emotional rants.

 

[bagels]

After the crime, both Knox and Sollecito said they would never take drugs again.

Make of that what you will.

I doubt Knox said that.

What she should have said is she would never apply for a passport without reading it again:

Particularly: If in trouble, contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate.

Probably would have been a wiser move than sitting in a police station and letting a room full of cops yell at you in Italian. But you know, reading is like, totally lame.

 

[AnimalFriendly]

Big holes in that.

You don't say? Go back & reread where he admitted his theory was, like everything you put forth, nonsensical.

For a start, it would have been totally out of character for Mez to smash her own windows,

You know nothing of Kercher's character. Smashing one's own windows is kind of outside the norm, though. So there's that.

If he was a rapist, strange that the rape was never consummated.

Oh, not really...since the consummation would have taken place after Kercher was already on the verge of death. That probably had something to do with it.

 

[TomG]

She probably assumed he was South African because he supported South Africa against England in the Rugby World Cup final earlier. As a basketball player, Guede possibly looked short in comparison with his ream mates. If she wanted to implicate him, why not just name him?

As Marasca-Bruno observed, Knox covered up for Guede, just as Guede covered up for Knox in his phone call to his friend Benedetti. Partners in crime cover up for each other. Just as Sollecito covered uo for Knox (but then threw her under the bus at the second interrogation, saying she had made him lie for her).

Covered up for Guede by describing him reasonably accurately to Ficarra? Covered up for him by not flushing his crap in the toilet, but pointing it out to the cops? Covered up for him by allegedly cleaning up her own bloody footprints in the hallway while leaving a whole sequence of Rudy's footprints untouched that were only inches away that she would have at least suspected were his? She didn't name him since she may not known or have remembered his name. Yep, that's what friends are for.

Hoots

 

[Numbers]

She said in her book that her aim in going to Italy was to bed as many men as possible. It is also assumed she went because there was a drug scene there.

Vixen, please provide a page citation for your statement.