DeSantis Martha's Vineyard Stunt

Wait, I thought you believed that if it isn't prosecuted then it's ok? Or does that only apply to your guys and not the brown people?


Again, missing the point. Whether you can get away with something is independent of whether it is legal or not. Laws are broken all of the time, and not prosecuted. That doesn't make the action "legal".

In this case, the people knowingly broke the law...probably understanding that the penalties, if any, would be light. It is a misdemeanor charge for a first time offense.
 
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Again, missing the point. Whether you can get away with something is independent of whether it is legal or not. Laws are broken all of the time, and not prosecuted. That doesn't make the action "legal".

In this case, the people knowingly broke the law...probably understanding that the penalties, if any, would be light. It is a misdemeanor charge for a first time offense.

Your advise when it comes to a wealthy white guy was that if it isn't prosecuted, "go for it." Your claim when it's someone who isn't wealthy or white is that even if it isn't prosecuted, it's illegal and shouldn't be done. The "point" is your double standard.
 
OK. So we are leaving that idea that your claim that these migrants are illegals makes DeSantis complicit in further crimes unchallenged. Got it.


No, I did not say that at all. First off, I am not claiming they are here illegally now, by the letter of the law. They are now asylum seekers.

I am claiming that their method of entry was illegal. Having lost that debate, you seem to be searching for a new one.
 
Well it should be simple to look up the pertinent exception to law, then. The one that clarifies when crossing the border illegally is legal. Just like self-defense laws detail exceptions for shooting people.

So far all of the law just clearly spells out why these crossings ARE illegal.

How about 8 USC 1159: Adjustment of status of refugees?

(2) Any alien who is found upon inspection and examination by an immigration officer pursuant to paragraph (1) or after a hearing before an immigration judge to be admissible (except as otherwise provided under subsection (c)) as an immigrant under this chapter at the time of the alien's inspection and examination shall, notwithstanding any numerical limitation specified in this chapter, be regarded as lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence as of the date of such alien's arrival into the United States.

ETA: That's part of the laws regarding refugee and asylee applications, and tracks pretty well with the shooting analogy. If you kill someone, and investigation/trial doesn't show a good reason, it's murder. Otherwise, it's justified self-defense. Likewise, if you claim asylum/refugee status and investigation/trial shows you don't qualify, it's illegal entry. Otherwise, it's not.
 
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Your advise when it comes to a wealthy white guy was that if it isn't prosecuted, "go for it." Your claim when it's someone who isn't wealthy or white is that even if it isn't prosecuted, it's illegal and shouldn't be done. The "point" is your double standard.


"Wealthy white guy". That is a fairly desperate attempt to make this a racial issue. Sorry, I'm not going to entertain that. And, if DeSantis is prosecuted, so be it. I have already stated, "let's see the evidence in court". I don't think a double-standards debate will get too far here. After all, Dems seem to be OK with tens of thousands of illegal crossings at our border each month, and some are arguing that it is "legal" for asylum seekers. When it clearly is not.
 
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How about 8 USC 1159: Adjustment of status of refugees?



ETA: That's part of the laws regarding refugee and asylee applications, and tracks pretty well with the shooting analogy. If you kill someone, and investigation/trial doesn't show a good reason, it's murder. Otherwise, it's justified self-defense. Likewise, if you claim asylum/refugee status and investigation/trial shows you don't qualify, it's illegal entry. Otherwise, it's not.


No. It does not say that their method of crossing was legal. Nobody is saying that with their application for asylum that they are not here legally. They gained entry illegally, it is as simple as that.
 
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So, "be regarded as lawfully admitted" doesn't mean what it says, gotcha.


They are being "lawfully admitted" upon their application for asylum. Literally nobody is debating this. They are in the country legally, now.

The issue, for some, is whether they crossed the border illegally; which they clearly did.
 
They are being "lawfully admitted" upon their application for asylum. Literally nobody is debating this. They are in the country legally, now.

The issue, for some, is whether they crossed the border illegally; which they clearly did.

Ah, got it. So it's "as of the date of such alien's arrival into the United States" that doesn't mean what it says.
 
They are being "lawfully admitted" upon their application for asylum.

You'll have to back that up with evidence because Hellbound's cite is pretty damn convincing. Can you cite a legal opinion that contradicts Hellbound's interpretation of that?
 
Although, to counter myself, it does seem to have become common practice to charge asylum seekers and refugees with illegal entry, in contravention of
international protocols we've agreed to. The case is made better than I can here:

https://scholarlycommons.law.northw...nally liable for,for illegal entry or reentry.

The law seems clear to me, but I'm not a lawyer, so *shrug*.

I looked at that and I couldn't support the idea that everyone gets prosecuted.

For example:

https://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/665/ Number of prosecutions.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-ne...ants-enter-us-through-incomplete-border-wall/ number of migrants at Yuma Gap alone.
 
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Although, to counter myself, it does seem to have become common practice to charge asylum seekers and refugees with illegal entry, in contravention of international protocols we've agreed to. The case is made better than I can here:

https://scholarlycommons.law.northw...nally liable for,for illegal entry or reentry.

The law seems clear to me, but I'm not a lawyer, so *shrug*.


From your link:

Within the past several years, the U.S. Department of Justice
has pledged to prosecute asylum-seekers who enter the United States outside
an official port of entry without inspection. This practice has contributed to
mass incarceration and family separation at the U.S.–Mexico border, and it
has prevented bona fide refugees from accessing relief in immigration court.
Yet, federal judges have taken refugee prosecution in stride, assuming that
refugees, like other foreign migrants, are subject to the full force of American
criminal justice if they skirt domestic border controls.


Thank God for the above. Posting one section of law, from a much larger body, is not going to give accurate context. The section you posted seemed to be geared towards those who crossed at legitimate ports of entry. and, seemed to be more about declaring that once inside the US with intent to seek asylum, they are considered here legally. Nothing to do with the method via which they crossed; that being a separate matter.

Of course, now some folks are sure to argue that the DOJ and Judges have it all wrong, too. No doubt they will find something to cling to, no matter how trivial. I am moving on at this point.
 
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"Wealthy white guy". That is a fairly desperate attempt to make this a racial issue. Sorry, I'm not going to entertain that. And, if DeSantis is prosecuted, so be it. I have already stated, "let's see the evidence in court". I don't think a double-standards debate will get too far here. After all, Dems seem to be OK with tens of thousands of illegal crossings at our border each month, and some are arguing that it is "legal" for asylum seekers. When it clearly is not.

Hold up, your clear double standard between what Republican politicians should be applauded for doing and how Venezuelan immigrants should be treated is not a racial issue? In what way is your anti-"illegals" crusade not a racial issue?
 
I looked at that and I couldn't support the idea that everyone gets prosecuted.

For example:

https://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/665/

Well, some do. It seems like it's still a legal grey area that needs clarification, but there are prosecutions happening to some that are seeking refugee or asylum status. So while the law seems clear to me and you, it's apparently being circumvented by prosecuting some before the determination of status is adjusted.

IOW "Oh, you might have gotten off on self-defense, but we can still charge you with discharging a firearm in city limits!"
 
In what way is your anti-"illegals" crusade not a racial issue?


Because "illegals" aren't defined by their race. They are defined by their method of entry into the country. I don't care what race they are, or where they hail from.

There is no such thing as the "illegal" race.
 
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From your link:




Thank God for the above. Posting one section of law, from a much larger body, is not going to give accurate context. The section you posted seemed to be geared towards those who crossed at legitimate ports of entry. and, seemed to be more about declaring that once inside the US with intent to seek asylum, they are considered here legally. Nothing to do with the method via which they crossed; that being a separate matter.

Of course, now some folks are sure to argue that the DOJ and Judges have it all wrong, too. I am moving on at this point.

I am thrilled you posted this, Warp12, because it highlights the differences in our arguments.

I posted something that actually countered my initial stance, because I'm interested in the finding out the actual reality, not defending a position that's incorrect. I still think this shouldn't happen, but it does seem there are avenues to do it in law.

You, however, read the first paragraph, saw something that supported you, and stopped without reading (or, apparently, even glancing through) the whole document.

I would also point out that the law I posted means the entry is considered legal retroactively if asylum/refugee status is granted. The decision you posted to is about people who are being charged prior to that determination. In terms of my analogy to self-defense, they're being convicted of illegal use of a firearm before they get their trials where they can argue self-defense.

While it seems to be technically allowed within the law, it seems to urinate all over the spirit of it, and I believe it's a loophole that should be closed. Prosecution can wait until the asylum/refugee determination is done, IMO. You obviously disagree, so I agree that we're done here. It's a disagreement of values more so than facts.
 
It's a disagreement of values more so than facts.


But we were not debating values. We were debating facts.

Within the past several years, both the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Department of Justice (DOJ) have declared that asylum-seekers will receive “zero tolerance” if they enter the United States without inspection.This policy has led to the systematic prosecution of asylum-seekers at courthouses along the U.S.–Mexico border. Prosecutors have charged asylum-seekers with illegal entry and reentry, even in cases where the defendants, as bona fide refugees, were legally entitled to receive safe haven in the United States.


The argument of facts, regarding the illegality of the crossings, stands on my side, clearly. The argument of "values" is a much more subjective matter, isn't it? Pleas for compassion have their place, just not in a debate about facts.
 
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Well, some do.
Well, yeah, no one is claiming that there no illegal ways to enter the US. If you turn yourself in at Yuma Pass and can't produce a convincing story you're the Venezuelan you claim you are then I'd expect you get charged and prosecuted (or what ever the fast track to deportation involves).

It seems like it's still a legal grey area that needs clarification, but there are prosecutions happening to some that are seeking refugee or asylum status. So while the law seems clear to me and you, it's apparently being circumvented by prosecuting some before the determination of status is adjusted.
I think we know it's a legal gray area. We have citations in the thread of experts disagreeing (that's basically what your recent link is). It drives me crazy that some people in the thread think this is black and white or can be resolved by citing a single sentence from somewhere.
 
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Well, yeah, no one is claiming that there no illegal ways to enter the US. If you turn yourself in at Yuma Pass and can't produce a convincing story you're the Venezuelan you claim you are then I'd expect you get charged and prosecuted.


I think we know it's a legal gray area. We have citations in the thread of experts disagreeing (that's basically what your recent link is). It drives me crazy that some people in the thread think this is black and white or can be resolved by citing a single sentence from somewhere.

Yeah, exactly. Definitely an area that requires clarification in law. Some people simply can't see shades of gray, much less colors that aren't on the black/white scale.
 

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