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Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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Vixen said:
Yes and the only time animas and birds have 'ladies only' spaces are when there are newborns. For example, bears tend to be solitary creatures but stay with their cubs until they are old enough to part ways. Elephants stand in a circle and help the lady elephant give birth. There is no 'female space only' there.
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This is all complete nonsense, by the way. As well as having nothing to do with my point, which is that the sex of any mammalian animal is trivially easy to determine on gross inspection in almost all cases (and inspection of the internal organs will sort out the rest, and the birds too).
 
Rolfe said:
This is why I have trouble wishing Semenya well. I think he knew all along. Although my ire is mostly reserved for all the officials who perpetrated this outrage, and the ones who sat on their hands and refused to do anything about it.

Sharron Davies is very vocal about all this because she lost gold medals in the 1980s to women who were doped up on testosterone. She believes her entire generation of female swimmers lost out to the East German cheating machine, and again the authorities sat on their hands and did nothing because they didn't want an international incident.

We know that however much testosterone you give a woman she'll never reach élite levels in male sport. How much worse now to force women to compete against actual men.
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This Sharon Davies? Five foot ten...? Broad shoulders, slim hips, chiselled face..?
 

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GlennB said:
Dogs don't rape. An entire dog is likely to take a sexual interest in a bitch when she's in season. At that point the bitch will be receptive. It's consensual, so to speak.
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WAIT!!! What??? Are you claiming human males are unable to control themselves from raping women...???!!! GlennB????
 
Vixen said:
WAIT!!! What??? Are you claiming human males are unable to control themselves from raping women...???!!! GlennB????
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Sexual predator human males are unwilling to control themselves.

Is this news to you? It's starting to feel like you've never met humans before.
 
Vixen said:
And do dogs operate 'ladies only' spaces?
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Are you arguing against same-sex spaces or arguing that men should be allowed into women's spaces sometimes? It would be really helpful if you picked an objective and stuck with it for more than one or two posts.

If you keep hopping around not making a point, some people might jump to the conclusion that you're not interested in a serious discussion.
 
GlennB said:
Yes, the one who has given birth to 3 children.
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But her physique surely gave her an advantage over the average woman of 5'4" with feminine shoulders and less developed quadriceps. The thing is it is not only transgender men who necessarily have a physical advantage in sport. The average male swimmer could never beat an Olympic swimmer such as Sharon Davies.
 
TheGoldcountry said:
Are you arguing against same-sex spaces or arguing that men should be allowed into women's spaces sometimes? It would be really helpful if you picked an objective and stuck with it for more than one or two posts.

If you keep hopping around not making a point, some people might jump to the conclusion that you're not interested in a serious discussion.
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Posters here are claiming that biology is all. Therefore by extension, we should look to see if the animal kingdom also biologically operate female only spaces.
 
Vixen said:
But her physique surely gave her an advantage over the average woman of 5'4" with feminine shoulders and less developed quadriceps. The thing is it is not only transgender men who necessarily have a physical advantage in sport. The average male swimmer could never beat an Olympic swimmer such as Sharon Davies.
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This is an argument against having different sex categories in sports at all. It is not an argument for allowing men into womens events.

You're welcome.
 
Vixen said:
Posters here are claiming that biology is all. Therefore by extension, we should look to see if the animal kingdom also biologically operate female only spaces.
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Posters here are claiming that biology is all when it comes to determining sex. That is not the sum of a person, and no one here is making that argument.

ETA: I don't care what elephants, dogs, etc. do in regards to sex segregation, but even if I did, that would not be the point.

As long as we DO have sex segregation, men shouldn't be allowed to cross that line simply on their own say-so. If you think those spaces should be abolished entirely, make that argument; I might agree in some cases. But you quite clearly aren't doing that.
 
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Vixen said:
What makes a person psychologically male or female?
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This question doesn't really have an answer, since there is massive overlap between men and women on any psychological variable one might care to measure, and because there are several confounding variables such as age or ethnicity which occasionally swamp gender differences.

See, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

Vixen said:
What are the psychological hallmarks of a female and of a male?
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See above.

Vixen said:
What makes a person societally male or female?
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In a word, genderWP.
 
Vixen said:
Posters here are claiming that biology is all. Therefore by extension, we should look to see if the animal kingdom also biologically operate female only spaces.
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Not only does your conclusion (that which comes after "therefore by extension") not follow from your premise, but you've also got the problems of (1) how to choose which other species or genus from the animal kingdom we should be looking at, and (2) how do we choose which one to model when two or more options might operate in mutually exclusive ways?

In other words, your post has serious problems.
 
Vixen said:
What makes a person societally male or female?
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d4m10n said:
In a word, genderWP.
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I dissent. We're using male and female to denote biological sex. What makes a person societally male or female is their observable sex.

Consider sexual attraction. Generally speaking, this has a necessary social component. If you're attracted to males, what makes someone male (and potentially attractive) to you is their male sex that you have observed.

A man can cosplay his sense of "womanhood" all he wants, but unless he's passing, he's still societally male because of his observed sex. Trans activists wish it were so easy to just erase our ability and instinct to observe and register someone's biological sex.
 
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