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Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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:confused: You see a distinct difference between genetic anomalies associated with sex development and genetic anomalies associated with finger development?

In what material way is there a distinct difference, aside from the elementary observation that they're different body parts under discussion?

Seriously? Do we define humans as being 11-toed or 10 toed??
Sex development is not just a single body part--number of toes is.
 
Here's what you, as well as Vixen, keep missing:

It's not that trans are sexual predators; it's that sexual predators are claim trans.


Consider a parallel analogy. Consider an under age 10 child-only space, designed and intended for the safety and happiness of children. In previous years, the age in question has been based on the chronological measurement of age, from date of birth. Similarly, there are requirements for a person to have a minimum age in order to access certain services, such as driving, drinking, and signing contracts.

Recently, there's been an organized push for people to be accepting and supportive of people who identify as transage. These people have been discriminated against and treated as social pariahs, because most people think that identifying as a different age than one has chronologically is strange and deviant. There's been a lot of progress made in accepting that some people truly feel a different age than they are, and in many social situations their chronological age is irrelevant.

There's also been a push to change policy. The desired policy is to allow people, including children, to be treated as the age they identify as, in all scenarios.

If we were to allow transage people to engage in every aspect of society based on their identified-as age, AND we allow that age to be based on self-declaration in order to attain a transage identifier on their various documentation... what are some of the potential downsides and risks that might occur?

  • What is the likelihood that a 16 year old might identify as 21, and thus be legally allowed to attain access to alcohol?
  • What is the likelihood that a 40 year old with pedophilic leanings might identify as a 9 year old in order to attain legal access to child-only spaces?
  • What is the likelihood that a 40 year old might seek to persuade a 12 year old that the 12 year old identifies as 21 in order to legally have sex with them?

In short: What sort of loopholes occur if we as a society were to accept a person's transage as being synonymous with their chronological age, and grant them access to spaces and services solely on the basis of their declared trans age? Are there potential downsides that may be exploited to the deficit of other people? Is there a potential for material harm to befall some people as a result of this policy?

How much harm to other people are you willing to accept in order to assuage the discomfort of those who genuinely identify as transage?

Putting aside for the moment that date of birth is a lot more easily determined than sex let a lone gender id...I agree that there can be potential downsides. My position is that we should be careful to support blanket discrimination against a group based on fear of those downsides. My analogy would be abortion--I am very solidly on the side of women having the right to chose, but that doesn't negate my recognition that 'human life' begins at conception and human life deserves protection. So while I disagree with the Pro-Lifers, I understand where the (rational ones) are coming from.
 
...snip for articles I will get to read eventually, especially if I win the Lotto...

Is it your assumed position that nobody would ever pretend to be the opposite sex without being genuinely trans in order to gain access to female spaces they would otherwise be barred from?


No, it is that the numbers are exceedingly small, particularly when compared to those who are *not* pretending. And if you ask me "well then, how many is too much?" I would respond by saying that I would prefer to deal with the behavior (bad behavior) rather than solve the problem by excluding an entire group, both bad actors and good. But if I saw it as a real problem, I might change my mind. I'll look at your links ;)
 
Determining sex when there is no other information available and you just have the body or the animal in front of you is extraordinarily simple. Determining exact date of birth is impossible.

I don't see why it would be any different for human beings.
 
Alright. Can you please lay out your reasoning for why sex-separated spaces should be completely outlawed and all spaces where people are vulnerable or nude should be required to be mixed sex.

If a person born male, but who identifies as a woman, has female anatomy, dresses as a woman, looks (to you) like a woman, comes into a woman's space where you are present, would you demand to see their papers showing some doctor has certified that they are a woman?

Why not? They're a man, aint they??
 
Determining sex when there is no other information available and you just have the body or the animal in front of you is extraordinarily simple. Determining exact date of birth is impossible.

I don't see why it would be any different for human beings.

I disagree. If you are present at the birth of an individual, it is absolutely certain what the time of birth is.
While (in most cases) it would be easy to determine sex, it could be extremely difficult if not outright in correct in some cases, and it would be impossible to know what future sex or gender development would be.
 
However, if you are not present at the birth of an individual, and let's face it most of us aren't, then you have no more than an approximate guesstimate as regards age. Even documents can be falsified, and if the false document is reasonably plausible it is not possible to know that it's false.

Sex, however, is something that can be determined to absolute certainty in all but a tiny percentage of individuals. And you know what? Once we have observed what sex an individual mammal is, it stays that sex. It doesn't "develop" into something else.

Gender is a made-up nonsense. You can say what you like about that. But sex is observable and correctly identifiable in virtually every individual.

Sorry, would someone else like to take this one up, I'm still trying to process that anyone even typed the above.
 
******* hell - YES - they are putting males in with females against the will of the females! FFS, do some basic research into what happened with Karen White in the UK, and what is CURRENTLY happening in California!

It IS happening. What I think is irrelevant to the observable ******* reality of what is occurring.

Here is what you were responding to:
Do you seriously think prisons are putting males with women "against their will"--inviting violence between the two?? Have you ever visited a prison? I used to be in them all the time for my first career--they go out of their way just to avoid that very situation.
Here is what prison officials said about the Karen White case:
A Prison Service spokesperson said: “We apologise sincerely for the mistakes which were made in this case.

“While we work to manage all prisoners, including those who are transgender, sensitively and in line with the law, we are clear that the safety of all prisoners must be our absolute priority.”

Gaurdian

You may think they are lying, I am telling you they are not. Although their primary concern is probably more their own safety than the prisoners...They do not purposely invite inmates to assault other inmates.
 
I disagree. If you are present at the birth of an individual, it is absolutely certain what the time of birth is.
While (in most cases) it would be easy to determine sex, it could be extremely difficult if not outright in correct in some cases, and it would be impossible to know what future sex or gender development would be.

Utterly incorrect. This has been dealt with countless times in this thread. It is impossible to change sex. Jeez, do a bit of work.
 
However, if you are not present at the birth of an individual, and let's face it most of us aren't, then you have no more than an approximate guesstimate as regards age. Even documents can be falsified, and if the false document is reasonably plausible it is not possible to know that it's false.

Sex, however, is something that can be determined to absolute certainty in all but a tiny percentage of individuals. And you know what? Once we have observed what sex an individual mammal is, it stays that sex. It doesn't "develop" into something else.

Gender is a made-up nonsense. You can say what you like about that. But sex is observable and correctly identifiable in virtually every individual.

Sorry, would someone else like to take this one up, I'm still trying to process that anyone even typed the above.

So every person who says that gender has some biological basis is an idiot?
 
Maybe stanfr doesn't know my background. I am a veterinary surgeon specialising in diagnostic pathology. In my entire career I never encountered an animal whose sex I couldn't determine, immediately and with ease. (OK, for some species of birds I grant you I might have needed to dissect them.)

It was commonplace to encounter animals where the best I could do was something like juvenile, or young adult or mature adult.

Human beings are not special in this respect.
 
Sex is determined at conception and immutable. When we're talking about mammals and birds, anyway. It doesn't "develop" to something different.
 
Sex is determined at conception and immutable. When we're talking about mammals and birds, anyway. It doesn't "develop" to something different.
In the lexicon of some people, though that is not universally accepted ... ;)
 
The one where you make up something the person didn't say and imply they did by prefacing it with "So..."
 
Maybe stanfr doesn't know my background. I am a veterinary surgeon specialising in diagnostic pathology. In my entire career I never encountered an animal whose sex I couldn't determine, immediately and with ease. (OK, for some species of birds I grant you I might have needed to dissect them.)

It was commonplace to encounter animals where the best I could do was something like juvenile, or young adult or mature adult.

Human beings are not special in this respect.

My dog Quinn is super girly, he's a total wuss.
Our other dog Mary is super butch, she's smaller than Q but she kicks his butt.
She definitely is the one wearing the trousers. :D
 
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