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Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

... and what on earth do you do when an obvious male is wearing a dress? ....

Clearly a woman ... :rolleyes:

That's the problem - see MW's usage note:

In this dichotomy, the terms male and female relate only to biological forms (sex), while the terms masculine/masculinity, feminine/femininity, woman/girl, and man/boy relate only to psychological and sociocultural traits (gender).

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender#usage-1

"male" and "female", and "man" and "woman" are being used for both the "biological forms" and for the "psychological traits" completely divorced from the reproductive traits. Hence the justification for drawing a line in the sand with the stipulative definitions of Parker & Lehtonen.

Do you think cops always do a complete fertility examination before describing people in their notebooks?

Do you think they check if those people "have developed anatomies for producing either small or large gametes, regardless of their past, present or future functionality" - as per Hilton's tweet - before referring to them as "males" and "females" - respectively? Do you think most people have a clue what those "anatomies" might be?

Makes your question something of a red herring. Regardless of whether we settle on the Heying-Hilton-Wright Hypothesis (HHWH) or go with the biological definitions of Parker, Lehtonen, & Google/OED, people are still going to judge based on "proxy variables", on the basis of secondary traits that are part of the quite erroneous "family resemblances" conception of the sexes.

The issue is whether the stipulative definition of HHWH is "essentially correct about what makes a mammal either female or male". Apart from the many problems caused by leaving most sexually-reproducing (anisogamic) species out in the cold with it. But despite Damion's claims to the contrary, that is precisely what it is:

A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context. When the term already exists, this definition may, but does not necessarily, contradict the dictionary (lexical) definition of the term. Because of this, a stipulative definition cannot be "correct" or "incorrect"; it can only differ from other definitions, but it can be useful for its intended purpose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

And the fact of the matter is that the definitions of the HHWH flatly contradict the "dictionary definitions" that Google uses (Oxford) since neither they nor any other source says anything at all about "past, present, or future functionality":



Whether such definitions are, in effect, used by some biologists, it is still the case that HHW are "giving a new specific meaning (for 'male' and 'female') for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context".

Seems to be some urgent necessity for such stipulative definitions from the biological community - too many are pussy-footing around calling a spade a shovel. Which only gives free rein to the charlatans and the grifters, to the deluded and the political opportunists, the result being a myriad of definitions for the terms in question such that they are all now more or less meaningless - and therefore quite useless.

Hilton and Company may well be commended for at least taking the bull by the horns, for drawing a line in the sand, even if I think their solution is very badly flawed from the get-go.
 
The story so far

"We need terms that denote sex apart from gender, for obvious reasons I won't go into here."

"Agreed. So what do you propose?"

"Well, 'male' and 'female' seem like a good idea at first glance, but not everybody actually has a working reproductive function."

"Why don't we just use the structural definitions of those terms, instead of the functional ones? That's what everyone is already doing anyway."

"Can't do that. It leads to confusion."

"Confusion about what?"

"..."

"Sorry, I didn't catch that. Confusion about what?"

"..."

"Okay then. Let us know when you figure it out. Meanwhile, we're all going to keep using the structural definitions."

"YOU CAN'T DO THAT. IT WILL CAUSE PROBLEMS."

"Solutions, my dude. It causes solutions."
 
Alternatively

"This woman must have been impregnated by a functional male."

"How can you tell?"

"For one thing, she's pregnant."

"But this doesn't account to all the other species on the planet. What about parthenogenesis?"

"Why would we be concerned about parthenogenesis in humans?"

"SEE? CONFUSION."
 
This entire argument is like an engine revving in neutral. Lots of noise and energy, advancing not an inch.

Steersman repeats his position. Other members take it apart and explain why they don't agree and why he is fundamentally talking nonsense. Steersman repeats his position with added snark.

Rinse and repeat.
 
This entire argument is like an engine revving in neutral. Lots of noise and energy, advancing not an inch.

Steersman repeats his position. Other members take it apart and explain why they don't agree and why he is fundamentally talking nonsense. Steersman repeats his position with added snark.

Rinse and repeat.

And even longer and more convoluted 'explanations'.
 
Here's 25 cents' worth of opinion:

When I encounter a tranny, intact or surgical, I feel helpless compassion for a poor creature. I don't reveal this by words or actions, or at least I hope I don't.

If one of them wants to talk about his or her condition, I stay quiet. My feelings at such times -- pity, embarrassment, revulsion (can't help it, sorry), discomfort, bafflement, weariness -- are not their concern and are not things to burden them with. Christ, I hope I'm a better man than that!

But I seldom even see trannies, and no wonder. They're a tiny minority throughout the world, and can't possibly have any effect, good or bad, on society.
 
Okay, I'd be interested to know if you're seeing the same example sentences which I'm seeing on my library version of the OED.

postmenopausal, adj.
1949 M. Mead Male & Female viii. 180 In Bali..the post-menopausal woman and the virgin girl work together at ceremonies from which women of child-bearing age are debarred.

prepubescent, adj.
2001 Spectator 17 Nov. 26/3 Tony [Blair] reading chunks of the manifesto to a class of bored prepubescent girls, one of whom put her jumper over her head in despair.

infertile, adj.
1753 J. Hanway Hist. Acct. Brit. Trade Caspian Sea I. xl. 266 A defect..in one man, could render only one woman infertile.

barren, adj.
1751 J. Jortin Serm. (1771) I. ii. 22 His wife Sarah being barren.

I've highlighted a few nouns in these example sentences which refer to people whom I'd feel free call female, even though they are most likely not producing viable gametes. How does this square with your earlier claims about the OED?
 
You already got your 25 cents' worth, but

Sackett, that post has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the thread.

I said it was opinion. I should've called it subjective reaction.

Even worse than being OT, it's my contribution to both of the gender threads, which are peculiarly barren thrashings of weeds.

If I'm gratuitously offensive, good. I would never want to offend by accident.
 
"This woman must have been impregnated by a functional male."

"How can you tell?"

"For one thing, she's pregnant." ....
Strawman, if not egregious intellectual dishonesty. Wouldn't say anything of the sort.

Though by the standard biological definitions of Parker, Lehtonen, & Google/OED (SBDPLGO), "functional male" is redundant - if a person is a male then, ipso facto, they're functional.

It's only the HHWH that requires that further qualification ...

See the "confusion"? ... :rolleyes:
 
Strawman, if not egregious intellectual dishonesty. Wouldn't say anything of the sort.

Though by the standard biological definitions of Parker, Lehtonen, & Google/OED (SBDPLGO), "functional male" is redundant - if a person is a male then, ipso facto, they're functional.

It's only the HHWH that requires that further qualification ...

See the "confusion"? ... : rolleyes :

Right, well, we'll all keep using the structural definition, which neatly avoids all of the confusion you've tried to create thus far.
 
This entire argument is like an engine revving in neutral. Lots of noise and energy, advancing not an inch.
Don't think you're paying attention - being charitable; the devils are in the details.

Steersman repeats his position. Other members take it apart and explain why they don't agree and why he is fundamentally talking nonsense. ....
Which "position"? What has been "taken apart"? How so? Where?

The "disagreement" that "a polythetic category definition implies a spectrum"? I've given chapter and verse - solid quotes from well-regarded authorities - justifying the claim. A refutation? Crickets.

That the HHWH isn't a stipulative definition, even if a badly flawed one? Again, chapter and verse supporting the case. Refutation? Crickets.

That "a spectrum requires a measure"? That one can't use "categorical variables"? More BS. A refutation of the contrary? Crickets.

Methinks you've got your thumbs - to the elbows - on the scales. Or you've got your hand stuck in a monkey trap. Seems you're so desperately committed to the "idea", to your article of faith that "everyone has to have a sex" that you're unwilling or unable to see that that is, at the very least, contingent on the definitions we choose for the categories "male" and "female".

Bet you couldn't even say "sexless" if your life depended on it - much less assert that it is at least applicable to some members of some sexually-reproducing (anisogamic) species.
 
Right, well, we'll all keep using the structural definition, which neatly avoids all of the confusion you've tried to create thus far.

Only in your entirely unevidenced opinion, only because you insist on sticking your head in the sand.
 
No, it's pretty obvious nobody is confused by the structural definition or how it's applied to common real-world scenarios. Even you aren't actually confused by the structural usage.

More opinions, more entirely unevidenced "feelinz" - you have any facts and figures to back them up?

“We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking. It is held in reverence. Some think it the voice of God.” —MARK TWAIN, “Corn-Pone Opinions” (1901)”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9019651-we-all-do-no-end-of-feeling-and-we-mistake
 
Only in your entirely unevidenced opinion, only because you insist on sticking your head in the sand.


Given that you do not get to decide which definition we or anyone else uses, how would you like to proceed from here?
 
More opinions, more entirely unevidenced "feelinz" - you have any facts and figures to back them up?
Seriously, Steersman, confusion about what?

If I use the structural definition in everyday life, what things might leave me confused? What things might confuse others? Give an example. Confusion about what?
 
Okay, I'd be interested to know if you're seeing the same example sentences which I'm seeing on my library version of the OED.
<snip>

infertile, adj.
1753 J. Hanway Hist. Acct. Brit. Trade Caspian Sea I. xl. 266 A defect..in one man, could render only one woman infertile.

I've highlighted a few nouns in these example sentences which refer to people whom I'd feel free call female, even though they are most likely not producing viable gametes. How does this square with your earlier claims about the OED?

Same thing, at least the "infertile"; I assume the others will correspond. En passant, I subscribed to the "Oxford Dictionaries Premium" - princely sum of $19.99 for the year:

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/oxford-dictionaries-premium-9780191836718?lang=en&cc=ca#

Of note is that they pretty much endorse the stipulative and intensional definitions of Parker & Lehtonen for the sexes, eg, "male":

male (adjective): Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring

https://premium.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/male#male_1

Though they don't seem to provide any way of posting a share link, but your library link may provide access.

But, more importantly, I kinda think you're barking up the wrong tree. That old definitions and uses may conflict with newer stipulative definitions pretty much means diddly-squat.

A stipulative definition is a type of definition in which a new or currently existing term is given a new specific meaning for the purposes of argument or discussion in a given context. When the term already exists, this definition may, but does not necessarily, contradict the dictionary (lexical) definition of the term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition

So what if there's a conflict? The issue is whether the new definition has some utility, maybe in reducing the "confusion" associated with such contradictory uses? You seem desperately committed to an adamant refusal of any necessary and sufficient conditions for membership in the sex categories. That is what opens the door to the depredations of the charlatans and grifters, to the deluded and political opportunists, to the unscientific and anti-scientific.
 

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