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Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

I don't see any willigness on the part of Putin for a genuine peace wiht the Ukraine.
What Michael H does not get is Putin's great goal is the return of the Russian Empire. He cannot settle for anything less.
I see no possiblity of a real peace treaty until Putin is gone.

I don't understand why anyone in Europe would not want a subjugated Russia. If the Russian military collapses, the dream of a Eurasia not under Russian threat of invasion will be a reality. With only nukes, they'll retreat to where they belong, behind their own borders. Demand for oil and gas will decline as green hydrogen supplies improve and Europe transitions away from petrol for transport. All this with will mean a Russia crippled both economically and militarily and that's a win for the world.
 
I don't see any willigness on the part of Putin for a genuine peace wiht the Ukraine.
What Michael H does not get is Putin's great goal is the return of the Russian Empire. He cannot settle for anything less.
I see no possiblity of a real peace treaty until Putin is gone.

I see no reason to take Michael H's opinions at face value given how disingenuous they are and often fly in the face of clear facts and reason. I am thoroughly convinced based on how his arguments do not evolve with new information, that he is here to promote a point of view useful to Russian interests, regardless of accuracy, and that is it.
 
Here's a bingo card.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-1-the-elites-v-the-people/

A defining feature of pro-Kremlin disinformation is its repetitiveness. For all the outrageous claims they make, pro-Kremlin outlets often sound like a broken record sticking to a just a handful of basic messages for domestic and international audiences. This is not by accident or oversight, it is by design: repetition makes lies sound more believable. Pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets achieve this by sticking to a set of recurring narratives that work as templates for particular stories.

JULY 28, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 1: THE ELITES V THE PEOPLE

Smorgasbord of scapegoats
This narrative can be very successful, as it provides a scapegoat for the target audience to blame for any grievances: bankers, Big Corporations, Jews, oligarchs, Muslims, Brussels bureaucrats, you name it. Russian disinformation outlets heavily exploited this narrative throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, notoriously alleging that Bill Gates either invented the coronavirus, or was using vaccines against it to implant “microchips”.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-2-the-threatened-values/

AUGUST 06, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 2: THE ‘THREATENED VALUES’

Narrative number 2: the ‘Threatened Values’

The narrative about ‘Threatened Values’ is adapted to a wide range of topics and typically used to challenge Western attitudes about the rights of women, ethnic and religious minorities, and LGBTQI+ groups, among others. Pro-Kremlin commentators ridicule alleged Western ‘moral decay’ or ‘depraved attitudes’. By contrast, Russia and Orthodox Christianity stand out as the true defenders of traditional values, as by this official Russian promotional video(opens in a new tab) illustrates.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-3-lost-sovereignty/

AUGUST 13, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 3: ‘LOST SOVEREIGNTY’

Narrative number 3: ‘Lost Sovereignty’
Russian and pro-Kremlin disinformation sources like to claim that certain countries are no longer truly sovereign. Back in 2015, a cartoonist for the Russian state news agency RIA Novosti illustrated this idea with an image:(opens in a new tab) Uncle Sam is turning up the flame on a gas stove, forcing Europeans to jump up and down while crying for sanctions against Russia.

Since then, there have been many more examples of this narrative proliferating in pro-Kremlin outlets: for example, Ukraine is ruled by foreigners and the Baltic states are not really countries. Pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets also claim that with their accession to NATO, Finland and Sweden are now about to lose their sovereignty and that they are acting under foreign (US, NATO) pressure. Further examples for this narrative abound: the EU is directed by Washington, Japan is a vassal state, Germany is an occupied territory, decisions in Ukraine aren’t made by its president but by the US, and so on.


https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-4-the-imminent-collapse/

AUGUST 21, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN
DISINFORMATION PART 4: THE
IMMINENT COLLAPSE'

Narrative number 4: ‘The Imminent Collapse’
In Aristotelian rhetoric, the concept of kairos denotes a sense of urgency for action. Most speakers utilise this concept when they claim: act now, before it’s too late! In the pro-Kremlin disinformation context, the narrative of the ‘Imminent Collapse’ fulfils this function.

Russian and pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets regularly employ this narrative. Examples include: the EU is on the verge of collapse, the US is collapsing, NATO is breaking down, Ukraine’s entry into the EU would provoke the bloc’s collapse, and the financial system is collapsing.


https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-5-the-hahaganda/

AUGUST 26, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 5: ‘THE HAHAGANDA’

Narrative number 5: ‘The Hahaganda’
A final resort in disinformation, typically when confronted with compelling evidence or unassailable arguments, is to make a joke about the subject, or to ridicule the topic at hand.

The Skripal poisoning case is an excellent example of this strategy. Russian and pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets have continued their attempts to drown out the assassination attempt with sarcasm to turn the entire tragedy into one big joke. A similar approach has been employed in the case of the attempted assassination of Alexei Navalny, where pro-Kremlin media has competed on delivering “fun” stories on how to better kill the Russian dissident.


More details in each section.

I have seen most of these in this forum.
 
Here's a bingo card.

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-1-the-elites-v-the-people/



JULY 28, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 1: THE ELITES V THE PEOPLE



https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-2-the-threatened-values/

AUGUST 06, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 2: THE ‘THREATENED VALUES’



https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-3-lost-sovereignty/

AUGUST 13, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 3: ‘LOST SOVEREIGNTY’




https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-4-the-imminent-collapse/

AUGUST 21, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN
DISINFORMATION PART 4: THE
IMMINENT COLLAPSE'




https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-5-the-hahaganda/

AUGUST 26, 2022
KEY NARRATIVES IN PRO-KREMLIN DISINFORMATION PART 5: ‘THE HAHAGANDA’




More details in each section.

I have seen most of these in this forum.



can we Sticky this to the top of the Non-USA & General Politics forum?
 
One problem about a possible independence of Iraqi Kurdistan (from what I understand) is that Iraqi Kurdistan has a lot of oil, while Iraq is very poor, courtesy of U.S. invasion. There is also some concern about local minorities (Arab minorities, in particular).

Crimea has a lot of natural gas fields and some oil fields. Since the illegal annexation by Russia we have seen their authorities crack down on local minorities such as the Crimean Tatars, something that has spread to recently occupied parts of Ukraine.

At this point you're just grasping at straws in order to justify why what's happening in Ukraine is different to other parts of the world.

I don't think that independence should be granted automatically after a referendum approving it (context does matter).

And yet that's exactly what you suggest with Crimea and the Donbass.

It should be more a last resort, people should first try to get along, to cooperate. There is always a danger that rich regions want to take their independence, while poor regions are left alone, facing even greater poverty.

The Donbass region produced nearly 1/7th of the GDP of Ukraine and 25% of the country's exports. That region is rich in raw materials such as gases like Neon, and extremely high quality lithium. The industrialisation of that region and the wealth that's present there is quite literally what you're describing.

In addition, there has been some collaboration between Iraqi Kurds and the central government of Iraq to fight the Islamic State. The relations may therefore not be as bad as in Ukraine, when a civil war has been taking place since 2014.

After the referendum the Iraqi Government launched an offensive to take control of lands they abandoned to IS that was subsequently recaptured and held by the Kurds. The only way that this is better is than Ukraine is that the fighting between the two groups in Iraq broke out after the referendum, not before.

I don't see any benefit in restoring Ukrainian sovereignty on Crimea (though one can say that there is some geographical logic in this)

Also because it's legally Ukrainian.

...they speak a different language...

They speak different languages in many parts of Russia as well, does that mean those places can unilaterally declare independence?

...Ukraine has a history of trying to impose its own language...

And Russia has an even longer history of doing so. I know this part is actually about Crimea, but have you ever stopped to wonder why the separatist regions of the Donbass have populations that have a majority of ethnic Ukrainians who are Russophones?

...the referendum has shown strong support for joining Russia...

And the other referendums I mentioned showed strong support for leaving their respective countries. However you don't see those as valid.

Crimea is by no means essential for the Ukrainian economy...

And it isn't essential for the Russian economy either. Which means it's completely irrelevant as a point.

...they are now fighting a very violent war...

Which Russia started.

Ukraine has imposed a number of "sanctions"...

Because of what Russia did.

...cutting off for example the supply of fresh water through the North Crimean canal in 2014. How can you like a government which suddenly cuts off 85% of your fresh water, for political reasons, because it cannot stand that you leave?

How can you like a government that doesn't pay for the water they use? If you accept that Crimea should belong to Russia then why is it that you are expecting Ukraine to give Crimea their water for free?

And that's ignoring the fact that nearly all of the water that the canal brought to Crimea was used for economic purposes and not human consumption.

In addition, Crimea has a history of being part of Russia for a long time.

And that applies to quite a bit of Eastern Europe. Does that mean that all those places don't have the right to their own territorial integrity (or even existence) because it was once part of Russia?

In addition, the decision to join Russia could always be reversed later,

Could it? How?

...we don't know what will happen in a century. It is possible that, in a few years' time, Crimeans will get weary of the lack of democracy in Russia, and of the dubious actions of its "security services", and will want to become closer to Western Europe.

Because that will totally happen. Just like how Chechnya is currently an independent country in the world and absolutely not a Federal Subject of the Russian Federation.
 
I believe there is a fairly obvious analogy between the UK trying to rescue Poland in 1939, and the UK trying to rescue Ukraine this year.

I also believe that, instead of providing a lot of weapons and money to Ukraine, which makes this country feel overconfident, and reject any reasonable compromise, the West should instead force Ukraine to renounce the parts of Ukraine which don't want to be Ukrainian.

This should lead to a quick peace, and alleviate economic suffering caused by high energy bills.

What about the other analogy to the Munich Agreement of 1938? The UK and others agreed to let Germany have bits of Czechoslovakia as long as Germany didn't invade any further.

Where it went wrong was in that the leadership of Germany turned out to be totally untrustworthy and ignored the agreement. Thus we had WW2.

Do you not understand? The current leadership of Russia cannot be trusted. They are a bunch of liars and crooks. They have no respect for international treaties.

Whatever agreement ends the Ukraine war, there is a pretty good chance that Russia will eventually rip it up and invade again, unless the terms or circumstances make it hard to do so. That means either the Red Army needs to be utterly destroyed or that Ukraine joins NATO. There is no other way to stop Russian aggression.
 
No, it's not so simple. You seem to forget about the many "economic sanctions" imposed (since 2014) by the West in order to (so-called) "punish" and humiliate Russia for helping its Russian-speaking friends, and respecting local democracy in Crimea and Donbass.

.

If the stupid ***** had stayed in their borders there wouldn't have been sanctions. There was democracy in both Donbas and Crimea until the Russian invasion and occupation of Ukrainian soil. There have never been referendums to leave Ukraine or join Russia in either place.
 
What about the other analogy to the Munich Agreement of 1938? The UK and others agreed to let Germany have bits of Czechoslovakia as long as Germany didn't invade any further.



Where it went wrong was in that the leadership of Germany turned out to be totally untrustworthy and ignored the agreement. Thus we had WW2. .

Exactly. The analogy is not with Germany (and the USSR) invading Poland, it's with Germany invading Czechoslovakia. They didn't demand the whole country. They only wanted to liberate the pro-German people near the border with Germany. And then they were going to stop. It was their last demand.
 
In the current Ukrainian offensive in Kharkiv, there is a ton of video of people coming out of their houses and bomb shelters to welcome the Ukrainian troops.

Russian-speaking people. Welcoming Ukrainian troops, because the people in that oblast support Ukraine, regardless of which language those people actually speak.

Because in Ukraine, speaking Russian does not in anyway indicate that people support Russia. Russian speaking people don't necessarily want to be part of Russia.
 
Exactly. The analogy is not with Germany (and the USSR) invading Poland, it's with Germany invading Czechoslovakia. They didn't demand the whole country. They only wanted to liberate the pro-German people near the border with Germany. And then they were going to stop. It was their last demand.

It's funny how closely Putin seems to be mirroring Hitler's early playbook. First there was an annexation by an army that wasn't actually up to the task, but nobody was prepared and so the invaders got away with it. Now it's the partial annexation and we'll stop here, we promise.

Next would be the invasion of "Poland", and open war with Europe. Only, it seems that some people at least have learned those lessons, and are working hard to stop Putin wile he's still working on "Czechoslovakia".
 
The Putin Propaganda machine is not handling the rout of the Russian army in Northeast Ukraine very well.
 
There do seem be be a few who have some questions on Russian TV as to how things are progressing:


It is a bit telling that it's actually pointed out (only barely indirectly) that promising to commit genocide against a population that you're attacking is a very bad idea... and a war hawk just basically goes, "We need to win this war. If they want to talk about their concerns about being the subject of genocide, they can talk about it after we've won." Yeah, like you'd care about what they think then, with that attitude. :rolleyes:
 
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There do seem be be a few who have some questions on Russian TV as to how things are progressing:


Wow!!
The only thing they still agree on is that the "nazi" regime must be destroyed.
How long before they realize that nazi regime resides in Moskow, not Kyiv? That they are the nazis right there in that TV studio?
 
Wow!!
The only thing they still agree on is that the "nazi" regime must be destroyed.
How long before they realize that nazi regime resides in Moskow, not Kyiv? That they are the nazis right there in that TV studio?

When they're almost certainly using an alternative definition of Nazi that comes down to NOT being a white Russian supremacist (a redefinition fostered for nigh the entire time since WW2, IIUC)? I wouldn't hold your breath.
 
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When they're almost certainly using an alternative definition of Nazi that comes down to NOT being a white Russian supremacist (a redefinition fostered for nigh the entire time since WW2, IIUC)? I wouldn't hold your breath.

Think about how most people roll their eyes and skip over when someone argues "You know who the REAL Nazis are?" I think many Russians may be conditioned to have that reaction even though it's flipped on its head in this case to make them disregard actual Nazis.
 
It's funny how closely Putin seems to be mirroring Hitler's early playbook. First there was an annexation by an army that wasn't actually up to the task, but nobody was prepared and so the invaders got away with it. Now it's the partial annexation and we'll stop here, we promise.

Next would be the invasion of "Poland", and open war with Europe. Only, it seems that some people at least have learned those lessons, and are working hard to stop Putin wile he's still working on "Czechoslovakia".

An important difference is also that Germany was an actual threat to the rest of Europe. No idea how things would've turned out if the same was true for Russia.
 

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