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Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

People who can prove they have been forced to leave, and who want to come back, should probably be allowed to participate in the new poll.
Do you really imagine the people who fled West from Donbas due to fear or intimidation are going to feel safe to return to their Russian-occupied town and vote? Do you really imagine the people who were "evacuated" East into goodness knows what distant part of the Russian federation are going to be free to travel back to Ukraine and vote? Of course not.
 
What does any of this have to do with Iraqi Kurdistan holding a referendum that voted in favour of independence from Iraq? Why is it that you don't accept Kurdish independence but will accept the "independence" of obvious puppet states?

But if you're going to take this route, why didn't the Autonomous Republic of Crimea ask for greater autonomy within Ukraine instead of holding a referendum that was deemed illegal by the Ukrainian courts? Wouldn't that have been good for peace and the Ukrainian economy as a whole?
One problem about a possible independence of Iraqi Kurdistan (from what I understand) is that Iraqi Kurdistan has a lot of oil, while Iraq is very poor, courtesy of U.S. invasion. There is also some concern about local minorities (Arab minorities, in particular).

I don't think that independence should be granted automatically after a referendum approving it (context does matter). It should be more a last resort, people should first try to get along, to cooperate. There is always a danger that rich regions want to take their independence, while poor regions are left alone, facing even greater poverty.

In addition, there has been some collaboration between Iraqi Kurds and the central government of Iraq to fight the Islamic State. The relations may therefore not be as bad as in Ukraine, when a civil war has been taking place since 2014.

I don't see any benefit in restoring Ukrainian sovereignty on Crimea (though one can say that there is some geographical logic in this): they speak a different language, Ukraine has a history of trying to impose its own language, the referendum has shown strong support for joining Russia, Crimea is by no means essential for the Ukrainian economy, they are now fighting a very violent war, Ukraine has imposed a number of "sanctions", cutting off for example the supply of fresh water through the North Crimean canal in 2014. How can you like a government which suddenly cuts off 85% of your fresh water, for political reasons, because it cannot stand that you leave?
In addition, Crimea has a history of being part of Russia for a long time.

On the other hand, accepting the results of the 2014 referendum (and the annexation) would have probably have great benefits for Ukraine (and affordable energy needing Western Europe), which, partly manipulated by the US-UK-EU axis is being gradually destroyed by the war, on its way to become the next Afghanistan, because such an acceptance could help stopping the current war.

In addition, the decision to join Russia could always be reversed later, we don't know what will happen in a century. It is possible that, in a few years' time, Crimeans will get weary of the lack of democracy in Russia, and of the dubious actions of its "security services", and will want to become closer to Western Europe. It is not impossible that the Russian Federation might one day disintegrate the way the Soviet Union did.
 
Russia could withdraw, start fostering diplomatic relations with Ukraine, strive for peace in the disputed regions, then get a legal referendum a decade or so from now. Crazy, I know.
 
Do you really imagine the people who fled West from Donbas due to fear or intimidation are going to feel safe to return to their Russian-occupied town and vote? Do you really imagine the people who were "evacuated" East into goodness knows what distant part of the Russian federation are going to be free to travel back to Ukraine and vote? Of course not.
I believe all of this is possible if this is discussed among civilized gentlemen (and ladies).

Nuclear inspectors are going to come very soon to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station, which is located in territory occupied by Russia. They don't seem to be terrified of meeting these "horrible and so barbaric Russians". On the contrary, they are legitimately proud of their contribution to peace and security.

And even if referendums are not quite totally perfect, an imperfect referendum is probably far better than people being constantly busy insulting and/or trying to kill each other every day. Nothing is gained by constantly demonizing Russians.
 
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/key-narratives-in-pro-kremlin-disinformation-part-5-the-hahaganda/

Narrative number 5: ‘The Hahaganda’
A final resort in disinformation, typically when confronted with compelling evidence or unassailable arguments, is to make a joke about the subject, or to ridicule the topic at hand.

The Skripal poisoning case is an excellent example of this strategy. Russian and pro-Kremlin disinformation outlets have continued their attempts to drown out the assassination attempt with sarcasm to turn the entire tragedy into one big joke. A similar approach has been employed in the case of the attempted assassination of Alexei Navalny, where pro-Kremlin media has competed on delivering “fun” stories on how to better kill the Russian dissident.

Lots that looks familiar here
 
Russia could withdraw, start fostering diplomatic relations with Ukraine, strive for peace in the disputed regions, then get a legal referendum a decade or so from now. Crazy, I know.
And all of this under constant "sanctions" imposed by the West, of course. Perhaps the Russians should say "thank you" too.
 
And all of this under constant "sanctions" imposed by the West, of course. Perhaps the Russians should say "thank you" too.

Ironic given your stance on all the things Ukraine should do.

Don't worry, I'm sure an easing of sanctions could be worked into the peace treaty.
 
Ironic given your stance on all the things Ukraine should do.

Don't worry, I'm sure an easing of sanctions could be worked into the peace treaty.
The Russians would probably not accept just abandoning their friends in Crimea and in Donbass, leaving them at the Ukrainian government's mercy.
 
The Russians would probably not accept just abandoning their friends in Crimea and in Donbass, leaving them at the Ukrainian government's mercy.

I don't see why concerns over the well-being of the Russian population couldn't be part of the peace negotiations.
 
Here's the basic position of Russian propagandists and Michel H:

Somebody wants your house and comes crashing through your front door. They rough you up, kidnap and kill some of you, and then they move in their family. They hold a vote. Surprise, it's now their house.

This is exactly how stupid the argument for the Russian annexation of Ukrainian territory is.

Crimea and Donbas belong to Ukraine. Russia has no right to be there.
 
I believe all of this is possible if this is discussed among civilized gentlemen (and ladies).
That's a very big "if". Do you think it even remotely likely? I sure don't.



Nuclear inspectors are going to come very soon to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station, which is located in territory occupied by Russia. They don't seem to be terrified of meeting these "horrible and so barbaric Russians".

They don't need to be scared the Russians will attack them because Russia is not currently invading their countries. They do need to be aware that the Russians will try to give them a false impression of what is going on in and around the power station site for their own propaganda purposes.

Nothing is gained by constantly demonizing Russians.

I was nervously hopeful that Germany's attempt to treat Russia as a good neighbour and create a mutual dependence on the selling and buying of natural gas might work. I was wrong. Russia is bombing and killing people in Ukraine right now, not because anyone demonized them but because that's what Putin wants. What you call demonising is just people's horrified reaction to Putin's bloody war.
 
That's a very big "if". Do you think it even remotely likely? I sure don't.





They don't need to be scared the Russians will attack them because Russia is not currently invading their countries. They do need to be aware that the Russians will try to give them a false impression of what is going on in and around the power station site for their own propaganda purposes.



I was nervously hopeful that Germany's attempt to treat Russia as a good neighbour and create a mutual dependence on the selling and buying of natural gas might work. I was wrong. Russia is bombing and killing people in Ukraine right now, not because anyone demonized them but because that's what Putin wants. What you call demonising is just people's horrified reaction to Putin's bloody war.
No, it's not so simple. You seem to forget about the many "economic sanctions" imposed (since 2014) by the West in order to (so-called) "punish" and humiliate Russia for helping its Russian-speaking friends, and respecting local democracy in Crimea and Donbass.

You seem to be also strangely forgetful about Western crimes (invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq, help for allowing Israel to steal every month more Palestinian territory, bombing of Yugoslavia, Libya and so on and so forth ...).
If you really think that an American bomb falling in Iraq or in Syria is somehow gentler than a Russian missile, I think you're wrong.

There is a difference between believing you are morally superior (and repeating it all day while insulting your opponents), and being really morally better, which involves as a typical characteristic a share of humility.
 
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And all of this under constant "sanctions" imposed by the West, of course. Perhaps the Russians should say "thank you" too.

The sanctions imposed because of the invasion of Ukrainian territories would of course stop once Russia leaves those.

You act as if Russia is unfairly punished, which is a bit like a mugger complaining about the consequences of his actions after robbing someone.
 
No, it's not so simple. You seem to forget about the many "economic sanctions" imposed (since 2014) by the West in order to (so-called) "punish" and humiliate Russia for helping its Russian-speaking friends, and respecting local democracy in Crimea and Donbass.
The Russians aren't there to help anyone. They've been using the locals as cannon fodder to see if Ukrainian defenders can keep shooting after a bombardment. This is a land grab by Putin. Sanctions are an entirely legitimate response to a country grabbing parts of its neighbour's land. You seem to think that shouldn't apply to Russia because it might hurt their feelings.

You seem to be also strangely forgetful about Western crimes (invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq, help for allowing Israel to steal every month more Palestinian territory, bombing of Yugoslavia, Libya and so on and so forth ...).
If you really think that an American bomb falling in Iraq or in Syria is somehow gentler than a Russian missile, I think you're wrong.
You might like to quote whatever I wrote that makes you think I supported the Iraq war or the occupation of Palestinian land because I seem to be having trouble remembering when I did that. Are you quite sure you're not just projecting a load of assumptions about what I believe just because I happen to think your position on the invasion of Ukraine is absurd and fantastical?

There is a difference between believing you are morally superior (and repeating it all day while insulting your opponents), and being really morally better, which involves as a typical characteristic a share of humility.

Okay, I'm convinced it's just you projecting now. Your notions of how to end Putin's war are asinine and utterly unrealistic. Russia is not going to back off from this cynical land-grab unless it's forced to. That doesn't make me morally superior to anything or anyone, it just makes Putin a callous, evil ****.
 
Here's the basic position of Russian propagandists and Michel H:

Somebody wants your house and comes crashing through your front door. They rough you up, kidnap and kill some of you, and then they move in their family. They hold a vote. Surprise, it's now their house.

This is exactly how stupid the argument for the Russian annexation of Ukrainian territory is.

Crimea and Donbas belong to Ukraine. Russia has no right to be there.

Just to expand that... it's still stupid even if the person crashing through the front door is a rich, powerful relative who used to own the house long before. It's still stupid even if you were friends with that person before they crashed through the door and if they used the pretense that the neighbors were annoying as justification for their actions.

The sanctions imposed because of the invasion of Ukrainian territories would of course stop once Russia leaves those.

You act as if Russia is unfairly punished, which is a bit like a mugger complaining about the consequences of his actions after robbing someone.

I'm doubtful that many of the sanctions that have been imposed will actually be lifted immediately even if Russia withdraws fully.
 
The Russians would probably not accept just abandoning their friends in Crimea and in Donbass, leaving them at the Ukrainian government's mercy.

But those aren't Russia. Both are part of Ukraine. We don't know what the people of either think because there has never been a referendum in either location.
 
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I don't see any willigness on the part of Putin for a genuine peace wiht the Ukraine.
What Michael H does not get is Putin's great goal is the return of the Russian Empire. He cannot settle for anything less.
I see no possiblity of a real peace treaty until Putin is gone.
 

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