Gore on the erosion of constitutional balance

Gore was PART OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION. Pretending that the Clinton admistration is irrelevant is dishonest.

Pretending that Republicans scream "Clinton!" at every issue is dishonest.

You are dishonest.
 
Gore was PART OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION. Pretending that the Clinton admistration is irrelevant is dishonest.

Pretending that Republicans scream "Clinton!" at every issue is dishonest.

You are dishonest.


Let's see, now, who screamed "Clinton" in this thread?

Oops. Get your act together, Vandelay, first you publically accused me of unprofessional behavior in a forum that can be read by anyone in the world with a computer, and now you try to duck the fact that the only reasoning we see in this thread is "CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON".

Gore is Clinton no more than Bush is Cheney, Rove, Abramoff, or any such thing. Seems when somebody says one thing, you're all over CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON but when somebody says something else, oops, now it's not so good.
 
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Or is he referring to the Congressional Resolution which has no verbiage concnering foreign nationals or agents or anything.

That is not correct. To quote the AUMF (emphasis is mine):

[T]he President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
 
And to my point: that if there are some cases where he can act without review, who is to know whether he is only acting without review according to those guidelines? There's no review!

It may be that he's not authorized to tap the democratic campaign chairman, but if he doesn't have to tell anyone what he's doing, how does that restrain him?

This is not the case.

50 USC; §413(a)

Reports to Congressional committees of intelligence activities and anticipated activities

(1) The President shall ensure that the congressional intelligence committees are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity as required by this subchapter.

(2) Nothing in this subchapter shall be construed as requiring the approval of the congressional intelligence committees as a condition precedent to the initiation of any significant anticipated intelligence activity.

Read § 413b for the specific statutory notification requirements. All of the Dems in the "Gang of 8" as existed in 2001 have acknowledged Congressional notification.
 
However, in your case, the policeman would need to fill out a report after the fact indicating that he searched the house without a prior warrant. Bush is denying that he needs even to take this step.

Not true. Title 50 of the US Code specifies reporting requirement for all covert operations, which, by all indications, were followed.
 
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The way I understand all this verbage is that prior to 1994, the Clinton Administration believed there was a loophole in the FISA act which allowed the government to search someone's property without a warrant if the investigation was related to foreign intelligence gathering.

In 1994, Congress then closed that loophole and required such searches to be approved under FISA, but allowed for emergency circumstances where a delay in seeking a warrant might result in intelligence being lost. In such cases, the Atty. General could approve a warrantless search but must follow it up with approval by a FISA judge within 24 hours. If the emergency search was then found not to be worthy of a warrant, any evidence gathered during the warrantless search could not be used in court.

Bush knows all this, and has acknowledged it. However, he claims a new giant loophole was created when Congress approved the war on terror and said it could be fought using "all means necessary", or words to that effect.

Where that exact text is that he is relying on, I have not taken the time to discover. Mabye someone else can take the ball.

From the Congressional Research Service Memorandum Presidential Authority to Conduct Warrantless Electronic Surveillance to Gather Foreign Intelligence Information:


The President has stated that he believes his order to be fully supported by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, and the Attorney General clarified that the Administration bases its authority both on inherent presidential powers and the joint resolution authorizing the use of "all necessary and appropriate force" to engage militarily those responsible for the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 ("AUMF"). Although the resolution does not expressly specify what it authorizes as "necessary and appropriate force" the Administration discerns the intent of Congress to provide the statutory authority necessary to take virtually any action reasonably calculated to prevent a terrorist attack, including by overriding at least some statutory prohibitions that contain exceptions for conduct that is "otherwise authorized by statute." Specifically, the Administration asserts that a part of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) that punishes those who conduct "electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute does not bar the NSA surveillance at issue because the AUMF is just such a statute.

The underlining is mine. That quote starts on the bottom of page two.

Here a former general counsel for the Senate and House Intelligence committees, assistant general counsel at the CIA and executive director of the National Terrorism Commission from1999-2000 writes:


Attorney General Alberto Gonzales claims that the NSA program did not violate the law because FISA only requires a warrant "unless otherwise authorized by statute" and that the congressional resolution authorizing the use of force after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, somehow authorized this circumvention of FISA's rules. FISA does provide for criminal penalties if surveillance is conducted under color of law "except as authorized by statute." This is a reference to either FISA or the criminal wiretap statute. A resolution, such as the Use of Force resolution, does not provide statutory authority. Moreover, FISA specifically provides for warrantless surveillance for up to 15 days after a declaration of war. Why would Congress include that provision if a mere Use of Force resolution could render FISA inapplicable?

The law clearly states that the criminal wiretap statute and FISA are "the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance . . . and the interception of domestic wire, oral, and electronic communications may be conducted." If these authorities are exclusive, there is no other legal authority that can authorize warrantless surveillance.

Courts generally will not view such a clear statutory statement as having been overruled by a later congressional action unless there is an equally clear indication that Congress intended to do that.

What fun.
 
Let's see, now, who screamed "Clinton" in this thread?
No one "screamed" Clinton in this thread, and there are plenty of other threads where he is not mentioned (or brought up by liberals). The fact that Clinton was brought up in a thread in which he is relevant does nothing to support your position.

Oops. Get your act together, Vandelay, first you publically accused me of unprofessional behavior
I accused you of dishonest behavior. Unless you get paid to post on this forum, I'm not sure how "unprofessional" would be an appropriate term.

and now you try to duck the fact that the only reasoning we see in this thread is "CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON".
For me to be ducking that "fact", it would first have to be true, which is clearly not the case. The arguments being made are quite more complicated than just "CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON".

Gore is Clinton no more than Bush is Cheney, Rove, Abramoff, or any such thing.
Gore was part of the Clinton administration. Are you saying that you would take the same position if there were an analogous situation involving Bush and Cheney, Rove, or Abramoff? If, ten years from now, the new president were to spy on Americans, and Cheney were to criticize him for it, would you consider there to be nothing hypocritical about that?

Seems when somebody says one thing, you're all over CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON but when somebody says something else, oops, now it's not so good.
Huh? What is that supposed to mean?
 
Thx Cylinder for the info. I guess we will have to wait and see if any of this is investigated and resolved. Personally, I think the Congressional Resolution does not give the President to flout the FISA and the Constitution and I DO think that is what is happening here. Now, I could be wrong legally as I am clearly not a lawyer. But even if I am wrong legally, it makes me very uncomfrotable that there is essentially no check on the President in regards to these wiretaps.

Lurker
 
Not true. Title 50 of the US Code specifies reporting requirement for all covert operations, which, by all indications, were followed.

I'm not saying this is untrue, but I'd like more information and a source if possible. Does the reporting go to any judicial body that can review whether he acted within the law? Is it publicly available for the people to review, if not?
 
PB, you can keep posting this again and again like you did in the other thread, but it ignores the root of the presidential powers in question here. Once again, from the FISA court:
Ultimately, the question becomes whether FISA, as amended by the Patriot Act, is a reasonable response based on a balance of the legitimate need of the government for foreign intelligence information to protect against national security threats with the protected rights of citizens. Cf. Keith, 407 U.S. at 322-23 (in domestic security context, holding that standards different from those in Title III “may be compatible with the Fourth Amendment if they are reasonable both in relation to the legitimate need of the government for intelligence information and the protected rights of our citizens”). To answer that question–whether the Patriot Act’s disavowal of the primary purpose test is constitutional–besides comparing the FISA procedures with Title III, it is necessary to consider carefully the underlying rationale of the primary purpose test. It will be recalled that the case that set forth the primary purpose test as constitutionally required was Truong. The Fourth Circuit thought that Keith’s balancing standard implied the adoption of the primary purpose test. We reiterate that Truong dealt with a pre-FISA surveillance based on the President’s constitutional responsibility to conduct the foreign affairs of the United States. 629 F.2d at 914. Although Truong suggested the line it drew was a constitutional minimum that would apply to a FISA surveillance, see id. at 914 n.4, it had no occasion to consider the application of the statute carefully. The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information.26 It was incumbent upon the court, therefore, to determine the boundaries of that constitutional authority in the case before it. We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power. The question before us is the reverse, does FISA amplify the President’s power by providing a mechanism that at least approaches a classic warrant and which therefore supports the government’s contention that FISA searches are constitutionally reasonable.
Bold emphasis mine. FISA (or any other Congressional Act) cannot limit a power granted to the POTUS by the Constitution, and the Truong case affirmed that the POTUS does have the Constitutional authority for such searches. Congress can expand Presidential authority, but cannot restrict inherent powers granted by the Constitution.

To attempt to head off the predictable response of the anti-Bushies here, no, it doesn't mean the POTUS can do whatever he wants nor grant him dictatorial powers. It merely gives him free reign to conduct surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes.

And BTW, did Gore object to Echelon when he was VP? Hypocracy knows no bounds when politics is at issue...
 
And seeing as how Gore is basing his criticism on the basis that Bush is violating the consitution and the rights of American citizens rather than congressional legislation, the issue of whether congressional legislation has been altered in the interim quite irrelevant. Unless the rights of American citizens, not congressional legislation, has changed since Gore was in power, he is a hypocrite.
 
Then why wouldn't he attack that issue?

I'm not arguing with you in particular here, but I see two issues:

1) Congress has written a law that at least may appear to contradict the constitution, and have written it in a way that suggests they intend to override the constitution. Do they have this power?

2) Do you have to notify both parties of a phone call, or only the US resident/citizen? Don't know.

jj, I missed this post of yours yesterday. Sorry about that.

For number 1, I don't know if FISA as a whole has been challenged in court.

For number 2, I would guess you would only have to notify the US resident/citizen, but that's just a guess. And it hasn't even been determined if wiretaps require notification under FISA or just property searches.
 
And seeing as how Gore is basing his criticism on the basis that Bush is violating the consitution and the rights of American citizens rather than congressional legislation, the issue of whether congressional legislation has been altered in the interim quite irrelevant. Unless the rights of American citizens, not congressional legislation, has changed since Gore was in power, he is a hypocrite.

I disagree with this. Laws can be used to clarify Constitutional rights. If I recall correctly, Miranda is referred to as a Constitutional right yet I see nothing on the Constitution directly about Miranda.

Lurker
 
Everything points to Bush using the joint resolution as his "legal" justification for warrantless wiretaps. For some reason, he does not want to obtain warrants.

Could be the reason is that they don't intend to prosecute based on what information they learn. Just prevent attacks.

I don't know. But the crux of the biscuit is Bush really doesn't want to have to prove probable cause.
 
I disagree with this. Laws can be used to clarify Constitutional rights. If I recall correctly, Miranda is referred to as a Constitutional right yet I see nothing on the Constitution directly about Miranda.

Lurker
Miranda is not a law, it is a court case.
 
But what forces cops to read you your rights? I don't recall that being in the Constitution.

Lurker
 
But what forces cops to read you your rights? I don't recall that being in the Constitution.

Lurker
The worry that a court will throw out the confession if they don't. Because the court in Miranda decided that it was in the Constitution.
 

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