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Steven Avery: Making of a Murderer Part 2

Some examples of forensic misconduct

There have been a number instances in which a forensic worker provided false information of various kinds. Some names that come immediately to mind are Fred Zain, Joyce Gilchrist, and David Kofoed. Unfortunately, misconduct is more widespread than just three people. My point is that if one were to deny the possibility of fraud or incompetence in the case, one would be ignoring the empirical evidence that it exists.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
My point is that if one were to deny the possibility of fraud or incompetence in the case, one would be ignoring the empirical evidence that it exists.
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Ah yes, the 'possibility' of fraud or incompetence, and the empirical evidence that it exists. :boggled:

'Evidence' like this,
Samson said:
the rav4 was not in its found position several days after the disappearance.
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Samson said:
The pit is shallow.
To generate heat a deep narrow pit is indicated.
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Samson said:
the cell phone come to a remote position
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Samson said:
Steven Avery achieves a high level of equanimity
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Samson said:
no satisfactory answer to why Steven Avery expected to get away with killing Teresa when the whole world knows he invited her to his residence.
It does not compute. A low IQ does not explain.
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the investigation of the burn pit was bad enough

Roger Ramjets,

Some time ago I covered the abysmal way that the burn pit was handled (see comment #433 and others); this established the actuality, not just the possibility, of incompetence. Ditto for Brendan's interrogation (see comment #253 and others), except that I am not sure that incompetence completely explains the conduct of the authorities. I also offered evidence that Ken Kratz acted unethically (see comment #489 and possibly others) and that the part that Manitowoc's police played in the investigation was...ethically questionable (see comment #346 and possibly others). I had hoped that people would remember these things while they read my recent comment.
 
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two analyses of Dassey's interrogation

Roger Ramjets said:
No need to mince words, Avery was framed - right? Because that's the only way he could be innocent.
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The portion of my comment that you quoted referred only to Brendan Dassey's interrogation.

Let me first quote a small portion of a link I supplied about a year ago. "Ultimately, only Brendan Dassey and Steven Avery (and, if they are innocent, the actual perpetrator) know whether Dassey’s confession is true. But based on dozens of psychology studies, we know that Dassey was questioned under conditions highly prone to producing false confessions."

And second let me quote from another link supplied at the same time, "It is here that the Reid Technique itself failed Brendan Dassey. If an individual does not vehemently and adamantly deny his guilt, the police presume that the suspect is guilty. As will be discussed later in this article, this conclusion is in conflict not only with the large body of scholarly evidence of the Reid Technique eliciting false confessions, but also with Dassey’s own character. His age and potential mental disabilities will be discussed in more detail later, but it was worth noting that the police, in following the Reid Technique, deemed Dassey guilty as soon as he did not vehemently deny his own guilt."

There are only two possibilities. Either the interrogators were remarkably incompetent, or they knew that what they were doing was bad interrogation technique and they did it anyway, believing that a confession would be so powerful that their improprieties would be overlooked. Were the interrogators unaware of Mr. Dassey's mental limitations? Were they unaware that they repeatedly contaminated his confession? Based on my answers, I tend to believe it was the latter.
 
Brian Gallini's and Michael Cicchini's views of the interrogations

Here is a link to a paper from a legal journal about Mr. Dassey's interrogations (note the use of the plural). "There is much to be concerned about with this first February 27 interrogation. Chief among those concerns is the investigators’ use of adult interrogation tactics on a juvenile with significant intellectual and social limitations.131 Add to that the absence of a guardian during the interrogation. Even the Reid technique counsels that, in the case of juveniles, it’s best to involve the parents..."

Here is a link to a review of a book about Mr. Dassey's confession. "In the first interview of Dassey by police, however, while sitting in the back of an unmarked police car and without any Miranda warnings, Dassey stated that he had seen Teresa Halbach leaving Avery’s property, raising critical questions about the detective’s theories about the crime. If Dassey saw Halback leaving the Avery property, his testimony would not support detectives’ theories about Avery’s guilt. At this point, the detectives changed tactics in ways that may surprise even Making a Murderer enthusiasts."
 
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The case is intriguing because
1. A guilty Steve Avery is certain to be convicted because the destination of the victim ended in his yard.
But
2. Brendan's interrogation created impossible facts.

It should all line up, but it does not.
 
Samson said:
It should all line up, but it does not.
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The real world isn't a crime novel. 'It doesn't all line up' is proof that Avery is innocent? I think rather the opposite - if everything lined up perfectly it would be suspicious. But most of the 'not lining up' is just a transparent attempt to make it look like things things don't line up.

You have made several assertions of things 'not lining up' that are off base, and some that are just plain lies. And every time you are called out on one you simply move on to another. It is obvious that you aren't interested in the truth.
 
"evidence of bad faith"

Link to the 25 August 2021 appeal document.
Link to excerpts.
"Third, Zellner wants the high court to answer whether “a state actor’s destruction of contested evidence” — namely the victim’s alleged bone fragments — occurred “in violation” of a state statute and therefore must count as “evidence of bad faith” under a governing U.S. Supreme Court case and Avery’s right to due process."
 
no clemency for Brendan Dassey

""The courts have failed Brendan repeatedly and at every level," Buting and Strang wrote. "When a federal judge finally did what the Wisconsin courts were too intellectually dishonest to do, acknowledging that Brendan’s bogus confession was obtained unlawfully, he was overruled by the slimmest majority hiding disingenuously behind a bad statute. The federal court of appeals ruled by one vote, 4-3, that although the Wisconsin courts may have been wrong, they were not so clearly wrong that no reasonable judge could have agreed with them. In other words, be Brendan ever so innocent, defrauded of his federal constitutional rights and wrongly convicted, a federal court did not fix it," they said." WKOW. The story is about the fact that Governor Evers is unlikely to release Mr. Dassey from prison.

Mr. Buting and Mr. Strang were involved with the case of Steven Avery. They had written an open letter to the Governor of the State of Wisconsin last March, and were interviewed by Wisconsin Public Radio WPR. "In their letter, Strang and Buting call out Evers for not fully exercising his constitutional power of executive clemency. While Evers has granted numerous pardons — vacating convictions after a person has served their time and been released — he has never commuted, or shortened, the sentence for someone still incarcerated."

"Dassey’s videotaped confessions are even used to train police officers how not to interrogate kids with special needs, the press release said."
 
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This is a case where he was framed by a family member and the police.
Everyone had a motive, financial for the police with the law suit, and otherwise for the actual murderer.

Would I bet both arms this is the correct solution?
No, but the theory claiming Steve's guilt is implausible from start to finish, including eliminating all flesh from the bones in one evening in a shallow burn pit.
 
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Samson said:
This is a case where he was framed by a family member and the police.
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So it's the police and a family member now? Such a conspiracy should be easy enough to prove.

Would I bet both arms this is the correct solution?
No.
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You are a man living in a foreign country, so the potential harm to you from being wrong is minuscule. Not so much for the potential victims (especially women) around Steven Avery if he is found 'innocent'. Even worse is the damage done to 'innocence' projects if Avery gets released and commits another similar crime.

So before giving him the benefit of the doubt we should have more than just shaky logic and half-baked conspiracy theories. Let's see the evidence of this wide-reaching conspiracy you posit, and convictions of the perpetrators.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
So it's the police and a family member now? Such a conspiracy should be easy enough to prove.

You are a man living in a foreign country, so the potential harm to you from being wrong is minuscule. Not so much for the potential victims (especially women) around Steven Avery if he is found 'innocent'. Even worse is the damage done to 'innocence' projects if Avery gets released and commits another similar crime.

So before giving him the benefit of the doubt we should have more than just shaky logic and half-baked conspiracy theories. Let's see the evidence of this wide-reaching conspiracy you posit, and convictions of the perpetrators.
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His previous form was limited to adolescent animal cruelty and road rage under provocation.
I would not be fearful.
 
Samson said:
This is a case where he was framed by a family member and the police.
Everyone had a motive, financial for the police with the law suit, and otherwise for the actual murderer.

Would I bet both arms this is the correct solution?
No, but the theory claiming Steve's guilt is implausible from start to finish, including eliminating all flesh from the bones in one evening in a shallow burn pit.
Click to expand...

So how *was* the flesh elminated from the bones, then? Or is it your contention that it didn't happen?
 
Roger Ramjets said:
So it's the police and a family member now? Such a conspiracy should be easy enough to prove.

You are a man living in a foreign country, so the potential harm to you from being wrong is minuscule. Not so much for the potential victims (especially women) around Steven Avery if he is found 'innocent'. Even worse is the damage done to 'innocence' projects if Avery gets released and commits another similar crime.

So before giving him the benefit of the doubt we should have more than just shaky logic and half-baked conspiracy theories. Let's see the evidence of this wide-reaching conspiracy you posit, and convictions of the perpetrators.
Click to expand...
I am also trying to think of a case where an innocent person is jailed for murder, and it did not involve multiple bad actors, witnesses, police, prosecutors, expert witnesses for rent and judges etc.
There are plenty of threads on this sub forum I could cite.
 
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