Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[lionking]

1) I'm not "trying" anything. I'm merely stating a relevant comparator.

2) As I've pointed out before, I don't care what you think, or about what most of the participants in this thread think. I care about what's happening in the real world. And fortunately, medics and legislative bodies in the real world are increasingly giving transgender people the rights and protections that I believe they're entitled to within society. The adults are sorting it out, while the children play at being "intellectuals" on an obscure internet forum

As I have said before Tavistock was once respected. Sweden was once satisfied with medical gender reassignment for minors. Sporting bodies are no longer happy with accepting everyone who says “I’m a transwoman”. Many lesbians are no longer happy to welcome transwomen with penises into their sisterhood.

I really hope TRAs become more demanding and vociferous. I think the tide will continue to turn as more women (in particular) become aware of their rights being compromised.

 

[Manger Douse]

What?

Firstly, in what universe of yours have I stated or implied that rape or death threats are not serious?

Secondly, I was responding to a post which was (correctly) pointing out that in many activist groups there's an extremist element which crosses ethical and legal lines in pursuit of its agenda. I was neither condoning nor excusing such actions - merely pointing out that there is plenty of precedent and giving examples.

And in fact, in the very next sentence of that post of mine, I criticise those activists who publicised JK Rowling's home address (which was actually the live topic under discussion at that point, and not the LA spa incident). If I'm criticising activists for publicising an address, it's quite the leap you're making to conclude that I condone or minimise rape threats or death threats in the course of activism.

You've grossly misrepresented my position on this matter. Oh well. Such is life....

You handwaved the rape threats away because black civil rights activists, and female suffragettes incels do it too

 

[Francesca R]

I have asked you before to quote me in context.

I don't think you have. But it is irrelevant. I have quoted you in context. Click back. See here and here. See here for the analysis of your post that I already mentioned.

And you elected not to provide any rebuttal to this. That is because you don't have one as far as I can tell. Ergo, you have a deeply misogynistic view.

You won't even acknowledge that issuing rape threats is misogynistic, incidentally; all you will say is that it is wrong or idiotic, and you are at pains to point out that people who write/send rape threats are likely not actually going to carry them out, as if that lessens how bad it is.

Failing to respond to challenges to you, and then coming back about ten pages later to write I never said that, as if you can dismiss what you have posted before and can avoid being held to account for it . . . . . doesn't wash very well here. Folks tend to think it is shameful.

 

[Ziggurat]

Okay let's say (hypothetically, for now) Travis Alabanza wants to get into the ladies room.

It’s odd how often some “non-binary” males adopt such stereotypically feminine clothing. Actually, that’s probably the wrong word. It’s not even stereotypically feminine, most women don’t dress like that, it’s more like hyper feminine.

 

[d4m10n]

Anyone who thinks that this is a not a violation of woman’s rights need to rethink.

Human rights are socially constructed and politically/judicially enforced. The highly educated people in charge of the Ivy League have been disabused of the traditional notion that one locker room is for people without external genitalia, and there are no norms, rules, or laws in place to stop them from implementing their new scheme.

tl;dr — Rights won't save anyone.

 

[Vixen]

Travis Alabanza, if that's how you spell it. Also the guy in Scotland who I think was a local councillor and boasted about using the Ladies all the time. When I remember his name I'll find the reference.

This one isn't labelling himself non-binary, but you get the idea.

https://rmx.news/netherlands/31-yea...-dressing-room-was-the-best-gift-i-could-get/

Oh dear. Don't you recognise a spoof when you see one? Do you really believe a musclebound 31-year-old male Dutch goalkeeper is going to get anywhere near a team of 15-year-old girls?

 

[Vixen]

Okay let's say (hypothetically, for now) Travis Alabanza wants to get into the ladies room.

I'm guessing Vixen will say that it's wrong to deny them access, b/c segregating men and women is much like segregating whites from PoC.

This naturally raises the question of whether anyone should be denied entry and why.

As someone who enjoys biography and autobiography, it sounds interesting. However, people who put themselves in the news aren't really representative of the ordinary person going about their lives. The transgender person I knew, did not wear outrageous clothing, hair and make up but looked like any woman you might meet day to day, just trying to live the life they choose.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, it was. But they're pretty much all at it now. M&S, who once banned women from coming into the communal part of the men's changing rooms to critique their other half's choice of clothes, because it embarrassed the men in there, now allow any man to strip off in the women's changing rooms.

(I think they were right to ban the women from the men's changing rooms. Obviously.)

Oh, and this. https://lilymaynard.com/it-izznt-funny-eddie-izzard/

Last time I was in M&S I had my own cubicle which was lockable. Who cares if a transgender was trying on a skirt next door?

 

[Manger Douse]

Oh dear. Don't you recognise a spoof when you see one? Do you really believe a musclebound 31-year-old male Dutch goalkeeper is going to get anywhere near a team of 15-year-old girls?

Yes:
Marjolein Schepers (31), who was temporarily permitted to play with a team of under-20 girls in the Netherlands, celebrated being allowed to change in the girls’ dressing room by saying it was “the best gift I could get.”

 

[Vixen]

I don't think you have. But it is irrelevant. I have quoted you in context. Click back. See here and here. See here for the analysis of your post that I already mentioned.

And you elected not to provide any rebuttal to this. That is because you don't have one as far as I can tell. Ergo, you have a deeply misogynistic view.

You won't even acknowledge that issuing rape threats is misogynistic, incidentally; all you will say is that it is wrong or idiotic, and you are at pains to point out that people who write/send rape threats are likely not actually going to carry them out, as if that lessens how bad it is.

Failing to respond to challenges to you, and then coming back about ten pages later to write I never said that, as if you can dismiss what you have posted before and can avoid being held to account for it . . . . . doesn't wash very well here. Folks tend to think it is shameful.

The issue is not whether death and rape threats are right or wrong. The law already states that it is a criminal offence to issue a death threat. In addition, people who make death threats on Twitter have found Inspector Knacker of the Yard feeling their collar. Likewise Twitter is swift to suspend those accounts.

The real question is, why has JK Rowling gone to the Daily Mail instead of the police about all of these death threats she claims to have had? Give me the citations of all the people who have been charged with this offence. If the threats on Twitter were from Russian bot farms, then that was surely more to do with propaganda, the hope that Western civilisation will fall into civil unrest, or silly trolls with nothing better to do with their time.

 

[Vixen]

Yes:
Marjolein Schepers (31), who was temporarily permitted to play with a team of under-20 girls in the Netherlands, celebrated being allowed to change in the girls’ dressing room by saying it was “the best gift I could get.”

I am sure it made for a great article.

 

[Manger Douse]

I am sure it made for a great article.

My favourite bit was how you were wrong and once again reduced to glibness

 

[d4m10n]

As someone who enjoys biography and autobiography, it sounds interesting. However, people who put themselves in the news aren't really representative of the ordinary person going about their lives. The transgender person I knew, did not wear outrageous clothing, hair and make up but looked like any woman you might meet day to day, just trying to live the life they choose.

Should the non-binary individual in question be allowed to use any changing rooms or restrooms they like?

¿[emoji700]?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Vixen]

Yes:
Marjolein Schepers (31), who was temporarily permitted to play with a team of under-20 girls in the Netherlands, celebrated being allowed to change in the girls’ dressing room by saying it was “the best gift I could get.”

Yet in the article it states the Dutch Fottbal League does not allow him/her to play with under-20's. The problem here is age, not gender.

Can you not see the author of the article has designed it so that it is as salacious as possible, in order to get clicks?

Yes, I can see that some 15-year-old female footballers would be uncomfortable with someone near double their age skulking about their changing room.

 

[Manger Douse]

Yet in the article it states the Dutch Fottbal League does not allow him/her to play with under-20's.

What does " temporarily permitted to play with a team of under-20 girls" mean?

 

[Rolfe]

1) I'm not "trying" anything. I'm merely stating a relevant comparator.

2) As I've pointed out before, I don't care what you think, or about what most of the participants in this thread think. I care about what's happening in the real world. And fortunately, medics and legislative bodies in the real world are increasingly giving transgender people the rights and protections that I believe they're entitled to within society. The adults are sorting it out, while the children play at being "intellectuals" on an obscure internet forum

Fortunately, in the real world, medics are restricting and banning medical and surgical interventions on minors and legislators are beginning to emphasise the rights of women to single-sex spaces.

 

[Rolfe]

Last time I was in M&S I had my own cubicle which was lockable. Who cares if a transgender was trying on a skirt next door?

I care if a man is trying on anything next door. For exactly the same reason the men using the men's changing rooms cared that women were coming into the common areas of their intimate space to critique their partners' choice of clothes.

The men made their feelings (embarrassment) known, and M&S quite rightly stopped allowing women in there.

 

[Elaedith]

The Australian Psychological Society is beginning a review of current 'affirmation-only' policy, focusing particularly on children and adolescents. However, they are releasing little information about the review or who is on the panel, making it difficult to assess whether it will be independent and evidence-based like the Cass review.

"APS members have not been told the names of the panelists, nor the terms of reference (although the review is expected to give special attention to children and adolescents). Questioning or criticism of the politicised gender-affirming worldview can generate activist pushback and career-damaging complaints."

"Psychologists who spoke to GCN on condition of anonymity said they viewed the APS affirmation-only policy as an evidence-lite ideology running counter to established clinical practices of the profession, including comprehensive assessment and differential diagnosis.

They said the wider appeal of the policy — devised by a small group of “no debate” affirmative advocates — rested on a false parallel between fixed sexual orientation and a self-declared gender identity that potentially demands lifelong medicalisation.

Until recently, the APS leadership had not realised the extent or gravity of the international debate about youth gender medicine, GCN understands."

The leadership of these organisations decides policy on behalf of everyone. Pushing back on it leads to career damage.

 

[Rolfe]

Yet in the article it states the Dutch Fottbal League does not allow him/her to play with under-20's. The problem here is age, not gender.

Can you not see the author of the article has designed it so that it is as salacious as possible, in order to get clicks?

Yes, I can see that some 15-year-old female footballers would be uncomfortable with someone near double their age skulking about their changing room.

You think 15 year old girls would be uncomfortable with a woman of 31 in their changing rooms? Seriously?

You think the fact that this is a man of 31 in their changing rooms is irrelevant? Seriously?

 

[Elaedith]

Yet in the article it states the Dutch Fottbal League does not allow him/her to play with under-20's. The problem here is age, not gender.

Can you not see the author of the article has designed it so that it is as salacious as possible, in order to get clicks?

Yes, I can see that some 15-year-old female footballers would be uncomfortable with someone near double their age skulking about their changing room.

Why shouldn't somebody who identifies as 15 be able to live their life as they choose in accordance with their identity? If it makes other people feel uncomfortable in an age-segregated space, aren't those people bigots?