Electric universe theories here.

[jonesdave116]

BOOM!

Just like an obstacle in the solar wind!

Nope. Care to link to whatever rubbish is informing your unqualified opinions?

 

[jonesdave116]

thermal acceleration? Shown to be wrong. Electron temperature of the solar wind

Hint..the above also greatly affect your "quasi-neutrality"

Didn't read the paper, did you? As usual. It is not even about the solar wind acceleration. They are looking at the cooling of temperatures as the solar wind heads out. However, you obviously missed (due to not having read it) the part on page 2, which reads;

Since the electrons have larger thermal velocities, they will leave the source faster so that the source will acquire a positive “ambipolar”
potential with respect to infinity.

And also missed Fig. 1, which is captioned;

Sketch of the ambipolar electric potential energy outside the source
r ≥ r0. The plot also shows the trajectories of some returning, trapped, and
runaway electrons.

Not to mention Fig. 2, which includes the description;

The region defined by E > B_oM, E > B(r)M + eφ(r), and E > eφ1 is occupied by the electrons propagating from the source without collisions and escaping the ambipolar potential, the so-called runaway electrons. The region E > B_oM, E > B(r)M + eφ(r), and E < eφ1 corresponds to the free-streaming electrons that will be eventually turned back by the electric potential at distances larger than r and stream back to the source, the so-called returning electrons.

You need to do two things, minimum - learn very basic plasma physics, and learn to read. Not necessarily in that order.

 

[jonesdave116]

In your fantasy, only the heavier ions are leaving! How are you managing that? That will leave the Sun with a massive negative charge. How are you getting a drift current of electrons into the Sun, past a magnetic field heading outward at ~ 400 km/s? (which will make the Sun even more negatively charged. Isn't the Sun supposed to be an anode in your fantasy?). More physics defying Velikovskian woo, perchance?

Still waiting.

 

[Sol88]

And as usual you would be wrong there.

I am sure you have read all those papers you link to with their "simplified models to have easier math" and understood them to the fullest.

MASS and GRAVITY are not the same thing, champ!

 

[Sol88]

Trivially wrong. Learn plasma physics. And start linking to actual plasma physicists who are telling you this bunkum. Not unqualified Velikovskian statements of non-facts. Read and learn, woo boy;



From;

5. How does the solar wind blow?

Basics of the Solar Wind
Meyer-Vernet, N. (2007)
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/basics-of-the-solar-wind/ADCBCC93380674E3A5A0B586C54629C7

And you are not getting dust in the solar corona. It is too hot. It will evaporate to its constituent atoms long before it gets there. Learn physics.
And the charged dust in the Saturnian system is dealt with by the paper you linked, but obviously either didn't read or didn't understand. That is why it is entitled; 'Ambipolar electrostatic field in dusty plasma'. Or perhaps you never got as far as the title, let alone the abstract?

From your link above...

5 - How does the solar wind blow?

We have seen that the solar atmosphere is so hot, out to so large a distance, that it cannot be held back by the Sun's gravity nor confined by the pressure of the interstellar medium. The interstellar medium therefore sucks it, somewhat as a vacuum cleaner – a nice illustration of Aristotle's horror vacui doctrine, but a pack of puzzles for the modern physicist.

Well, I never knew that, thanks for the heads up jd116. You learn something everyday!

wOw, science!

 

[Sol88]

moot point anyhoo.

You've already agreed CHARGE SEPARATION can and does happens in space plasma's.

 

[Sol88]

For those that would like a little more in depth look at the "solar wind", I'd suggest Donald E. Scott: Quintessence of Solar Winds | Thunderbolts

In 1962, the Mariner II space probe travelling toward Venus detected electrically charged particles moving through interplanetary space.

Then the Ulysses solar probe, launched in 1990, discovered the solar wind came in two varieties—an irregular slow flow of 400 km/sec, and a fast one up to 800 km/sec.

The slow solar wind typically comes from the Sun’s equatorially located 'streamer belt', while the fast type is from the relatively peaceful surface seen when looking down through coronal holes at the surface of the photosphere.


Author and electrical engineer Donald E. Scott, PhD, details the intricacies of the dual nature of solar winds, and how his Electric Sun Model solves the mystery of the extreme temperature of the lower corona—which has baffled astrophysics for decades.

Still, the interstellar medium sucking like a vacuum cleaner – a nice illustration of Aristotle's horror vacui doctrine, is a newie for me.

It explains a lot... cheers jd116 for sharing your knowledge, enlightening!

 

[Sol88]

Question for you then jd116, how does this sucky interstellar medium's "suck" achieve the two observed solar wind speeds?

More suck in spots?

 

[Ziggurat]

moot point anyhoo.

You've already agreed CHARGE SEPARATION can and does happens in space plasma's.

Sure.

But at what scale? How large are these charges? How far apart?

But that involves numbers. And you don’t do numbers. Sorry, Sol88, but there will be math.

 

[Sol88]

Sure.

But at what scale? How large are these charges? How far apart?

But that involves numbers. And you don’t do numbers. Sorry, Sol88, but there will be math.

Lets pick planetary as the scale, Io and jupiter as the distance. (5.9 Jovian radii)

Using your math...what are the charges of IO and Jupiter to POWER the Electric potential jumps in the Io-Jupiter flux tube



Fair call?

 

[Sol88]

Abstract
Much has been learned about the electromagnetic interaction between Jupiter and its satellite Io from in situ observations. Io, in its motion through the Io plasma torus at Jupiter, continuously generates an Alfvén wing that carries two billion kilowatts of power into the jovian ionosphere. Concurrently, Io is acted upon by a J × B force tending to propel it out of the jovian system. The energy source for these processes is the rotation of Jupiter. This unusual planet-satellite coupling serves as an archetype for the interaction of a large moving conductor with a magnetized plasma, a problem of general space and astrophysical interest.

The Jupiter-Io Connection: An Alfvén Engine in Space

Is two billion watts a lot? What are the charges on Io and Jupiter, Ziggurat?

 

[tusenfem]

MASS and GRAVITY are not the same thing, champ!

Thanx for edumacating me, but I never said anything like that.
Gravity is not always negligible in plasma physics, is what I said.

 

[tusenfem]

Lets pick planetary as the scale, Io and jupiter as the distance. (5.9 Jovian radii)

Using your math...what are the charges of IO and Jupiter to POWER the Electric potential jumps in the Io-Jupiter flux tube



Fair call?

No, not a fair call, because you don't read what you link to. There are small areas along the flux tube where potential drops of a few hundred volts is located. These are probably .... (ghasp am I going to say it?) .... double layers in the current system along the Io flux tube.

So, no 5.9 Jovian radii large electric fields.

 

[MRC_Hans]

The Jupiter-Io Connection: An Alfvén Engine in Space

Is two billion watts a lot? What are the charges on Io and Jupiter, Ziggurat?

It was kilowatts, but ... on a planetary, not a lot.

Hans

 

[Ziggurat]

Lets pick planetary as the scale, Io and jupiter as the distance. (5.9 Jovian radii)

Using your math...what are the charges of IO and Jupiter to POWER the Electric potential jumps in the Io-Jupiter flux tube



Fair call?

Why should I do the math when it's your claim?

You cannot and will not do any calculations. I called it, you are proving me correct. That's the whole point.

But I'll give you a hint about what you COULD do to see if that power output is large or small. If that power output was provided by the decay in Io's orbit, how much would the radius of orbit change in one trip around Jupiter? What is the fraction of the orbital radius?

The calculations are easy. But you still won't do them.

 

[Ziggurat]

It was kilowatts, but ... on a planetary, not a lot.

Hans

So I went ahead and calculated the decay rate in Io's orbit that would be necessary to provide that power, since we know Sol88 cannot and will not do it. I'm not sure if this is where all the power comes from, but that's not the point. The point is to measure the scale of power and compare it to the scale of planetary dynamics.

So what's the decay rate I get? Less than 1 Angstrom per second. Over a whole year, it adds up to about 2 mm per earth year. So... yeah, not a lot. Over a billion years, you're going to lose about half a percent of Io's orbital radius, so it'll matter eventually. But the forces involved are trivial compared to gravity.

I'm going to skip posting the details of the calculation for now (can Sol88 reproduce them? Of course not), but people can PM me if they're curious. There's a very tiny bit of calculus, as well as a shortcut taken thanks to the Virial Theorem, but the calculations are pretty simple.

 

[MRC_Hans]

So I went ahead and calculated the decay rate in Io's orbit that would be necessary to provide that power, since we know Sol88 cannot and will not do it. I'm not sure if this is where all the power comes from, but that's not the point. The point is to measure the scale of power and compare it to the scale of planetary dynamics.

So what's the decay rate I get? Less than 1 Angstrom per second. Over a whole year, it adds up to about 2 mm per earth year. So... yeah, not a lot. Over a billion years, you're going to lose about half a percent of Io's orbital radius, so it'll matter eventually. But the forces involved are trivial compared to gravity.

I'm going to skip posting the details of the calculation for now (can Sol88 reproduce them? Of course not), but people can PM me if they're curious. There's a very tiny bit of calculus, as well as a shortcut taken thanks to the Virial Theorem, but the calculations are pretty simple.

Good job. Obviously infinitesimal compared to tidal forces. And really, what is it Sol88 is trying to argue? ... There are electric forces in the forces in the universe? Well of course there are. So ****** what?

Hans

 

[Sol88]

So I went ahead and calculated the decay rate in Io's orbit that would be necessary to provide that power, since we know Sol88 cannot and will not do it. I'm not sure if this is where all the power comes from, but that's not the point. The point is to measure the scale of power and compare it to the scale of planetary dynamics.

So what's the decay rate I get? Less than 1 Angstrom per second. Over a whole year, it adds up to about 2 mm per earth year. So... yeah, not a lot. Over a billion years, you're going to lose about half a percent of Io's orbital radius, so it'll matter eventually. But the forces involved are trivial compared to gravity.

I'm going to skip posting the details of the calculation for now (can Sol88 reproduce them? Of course not), but people can PM me if they're curious. There's a very tiny bit of calculus, as well as a shortcut taken thanks to the Virial Theorem, but the calculations are pretty simple.

Did your calculations involve Io's MASS changing?

 

[Sol88]

Good job. Obviously infinitesimal compared to tidal forces. And really, what is it Sol88 is trying to argue? ... There are electric forces in the forces in the universe? Well of course there are. So ****** what?

Hans

Can tidal forces exchange MASS? can tidal forces REPEL ( you know, opposites attract stuff...)? Can tidal forces carry a current?

Seems these tidal forces are very limited in their ability to do much at all it seems.

Ahhh, the 'ol chestnut of there is "electric" forces but they dont "do" anything!

 

[Ziggurat]

Did your calculations involve Io's MASS changing?

Why don't you do the calculations the way you think they should be done, then we can compare.

Oh, that's right. You can't.