Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Vixen]

It does, however, mean that the Boy Scouts stop being Boy Scouts once they start admitting girls. That's the point Braverman is making about single sex services:They stop being single sex once they start admitting another sex.

She talks in terms of two sexes not because the law proves there are two sexes, but because there are in fact two sexes.

No, it doesn't. If little Jenny wants to be little Benny and joins the Boys Scouts, in which way is it the end of the world? It is still the Boy Scouts.

You and Braverman persist in petitio prinicipii logical fallacy insofar you have yet to establish that there is a compelling need to 'keep girls out' or 'keep boys out'.

Simply saying 'There are Boy Scouts' doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[Vixen]

As a matter of interest (and it applies also to your 1% claim)

"Anne Fausto-Sterling's suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling s estimate of 1.7%. "

From Pubmed here

However, Braverman's point - oft repeated in the piece we were discussing - was that if the rights of transgender people are enshrined in law then the rights of non-transgender people may be diminished. This is a point made endlessly in these threads and one I agree with. Allow trans women into women's protected spaces and the large majority in those places have had their rights eroded, and dramatically so.

If the incidence of transgenderism in children is far less than 1% then in which possible way are "the rights of non-transgender people [] diminished"?

You say you agree with this viewpoint, so do tell us how your rights are diminished if some little girl at your school presents herself as a boy? I bet you cannot.

How so "Allow trans women into women's protected spaces and the large majority in those places have had their rights eroded, and dramatically so."

Sounds like lazy reasoning to me.

Dramatically so indeed. Woe is me!

 

[Vixen]

Unless you're going to argue that transgenderism is somehow an intersex condition, you're barking up the wrong tree here. Nothing about intersex prevalence or experience tells us anything about whether we need to let people who went through male puberty into women's leagues and locker rooms.

Thank goodness we have guardians of the realm who will ensure that little Johnny, now little Jenny, is frog-marched to the boys toilets at the swimming pool by macho teachers with everybody hearing her loudly sobbing at the deep humiliation.

Perhaps we need to design some vigilante t-shirts to stop people like little Jenny.

 

[Vixen]

<snip>

In my personal experience, he's probably trying to get in her pants.

Rubbish. I attended a co-educational grammar school and the classes were 50:50 boys and girls. Yes, the boy watched the girls and the girls watched th boys who watched the girls go by and no doubt the boys also watched the boys and the girls watched the girls. It was all juvenile idealisation. None of us acted on it, except perhaps to follow each other home, make prank phone calls, girlish giggling, moping love sickness, etcetera, although one boy did take it too far (Giles, who became something big in Physics at Rutgers) when he brought in a periscope in order to look up girls skirts (should have trademarked it!).

 

[Vixen]

I love the smell of smoked herring in the morning

Sent from my Distract-o-Matic 2k2 using Tapatalk

English breakfast for me.

 

[Vixen]

It's a reference to the origins of "red herring."

[qimg]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220903/3b6fdef6453081850c36c2a77ed2960d.jpg[/qimg]

Ninjas everywhere.

I'll try anything once.

Your reasoning on transgender is neither fish nor fowl. More like the malodourous whiff of a Victorian corpse wafting up from the grave of a long dead sexism.

 

[dann]

Thank goodness we have guardians of the realm who will ensure that little Johnny, now little Jenny, is frog-marched to the boys toilets at the swimming pool by macho teachers with everybody hearing her loudly sobbing at the deep humiliation.

Perhaps we need to design some vigilante t-shirts to stop people like little Jenny.

For some reason, unisex toilets don't seem to be a problem in Denmark: VIDEO: Det skal være slut med pige- og drengetoiletter (DR.dk, Jan 16, 2019)

And at least at some schools, the youngest boys and girls appear to be sharing locker rooms and showers when they have PE: Badekulturen i børnehøjde (Folkeskolen, Sep 12, 2017)

Problem solved. But it is obvious that, for some people, this was never a problem that was meant to be solved ...

 

[Elaedith]

No. I am saying that labelling things 'boys' and 'girls' is a social construct.

What is inherently 'boys' about 'boys' clothes or 'girls', 'girls' clothes, other than perhaps bra and pants?

So, if little Benny wants to become little Jenny and attend a girls school, what is your big problem?

Why the need for cruelly excluding Jenny?

Yes, labelling things as being 'for boys' or 'for girls' is a social construct.

However, labelling children as boys or girls is only a social construct if you change to meaning of boys and girls to something that has nothing to do with biological sex. 'Boy' means young human male and 'girl' means young human female. Sex is not a social construct.

Encouraging children to think that what makes you a boy or a girl is your feelings, wishes, personality traits, play and clothing preferences, and not your biological sex, increases the likelihood that some children will end up sterilised and medicated for life as a result of being gay and/or gender non-conforming. In addition, gender non-conforming children who have no desire to be the other sex will feel pressured to be gender-conforming so people don't think they are.

I have yet to hear any explanation as to why these are good outcomes. Why do you think these are good outcomes?

 

[theprestige]

No, it doesn't. If little Jenny wants to be little Benny and joins the Boys Scouts, in which way is it the end of the world? It is still the Boy Scouts.

You and Braverman persist in petitio prinicipii logical fallacy insofar you have yet to establish that there is a compelling need to 'keep girls out' or 'keep boys out'.

Simply saying 'There are Boy Scouts' doesn't cut the mustard.

Click back. The reasons for sex segregation, and the reasons to preserve it, have been extensively addressed already. Nobody is begging the question here.

In any case, Jenny can call herself Benny all she wants, but it won't change her sex to male. Any single-sex organization for males that admits her will become dual-sex by definition.

 

[theprestige]

Thank goodness we have guardians of the realm who will ensure that little Johnny, now little Jenny, is frog-marched to the boys toilets at the swimming pool by macho teachers with everybody hearing her loudly sobbing at the deep humiliation.

Why does Jenny have to be frog-marched to the male toilets? She's male, can't she be expected and trusted to choose the male toilets on her own?

And why does Jenny experience such deep humiliation at having to use the male toilets? The vast majority of males experience no such distress at the thought, nor in the act. Is letting her use the female toilets really the best way to treat her condition?

 

[Vixen]

Why does Jenny have to be frog-marched to the male toilets? She's male, can't she be expected and trusted to choose the male toilets on her own?

And why does Jenny experience such deep humiliation at having to use the male toilets? The vast majority of males experience no such distress at the thought, nor in the act. Is letting her use the female toilets really the best way to treat her condition?

Have some empathy.

These lines are drawn painfully at times when she knows that by Georgie participating in society, she will be hurt. There is an extraordinarily hard moment where a very young Georgie is forced to use the boys’ bathroom at the swimming pool and Robertson waits for her outside the door, to the sounds of her child’s trauma: “When I recall this moment,” she writes, “I think about how hard it is to dress wet skin quickly.”

GUARDIAN

A mother's story about how her kid became transgender and had a female identification from a very early age and about the trauma they had to suffer. (Quite unnecessarily IMV.)

 

[Vixen]

For some reason, unisex toilets don't seem to be a problem in Denmark: VIDEO: Det skal være slut med pige- og drengetoiletter (DR.dk, Jan 16, 2019)

And at least at some schools, the youngest boys and girls appear to be sharing locker rooms and showers when they have PE: Badekulturen i børnehøjde (Folkeskolen, Sep 12, 2017)

Problem solved. But it is obvious that, for some people, this was never a problem that was meant to be solved ...

Horrors! You mean it wasn't the end of civilisation as we know it, after all?

 

[Vixen]

Yes, labelling things as being 'for boys' or 'for girls' is a social construct.

However, labelling children as boys or girls is only a social construct if you change to meaning of boys and girls to something that has nothing to do with biological sex. 'Boy' means young human male and 'girl' means young human female. Sex is not a social construct.

Encouraging children to think that what makes you a boy or a girl is your feelings, wishes, personality traits, play and clothing preferences, and not your biological sex, increases the likelihood that some children will end up sterilised and medicated for life as a result of being gay and/or gender non-conforming. In addition, gender non-conforming children who have no desire to be the other sex will feel pressured to be gender-conforming so people don't think they are.

I have yet to hear any explanation as to why these are good outcomes. Why do you think these are good outcomes?

Only because society forces them to make one choice or the other. Nobody encourages children to see themselves as being of the opposite sex from the one that was noted at birth. Most of these children have come to that point all by themselves.

I can remember the era when it was actually fashionable for boys to have long hair and girls to look androgynous (think Cara Delevigne or Twiggy). Nobody made anybody dress that way. Maybe peer pressure. My peer pressure when young was to wear a compulsory smart school uniform with an absurd bowler hat, which everybody hated and got rid of by the second form. These days girls are allowed to wear trousers. Does this mean they are being forced to transition? Was I being masculinised by wearing said blazer, blouse, tie and bowler hat?

 

[d4m10n]

Thank goodness we have guardians of the realm who will ensure that little Johnny, now little Jenny, is frog-marched to the boys toilets at the swimming pool by macho teachers with everybody hearing her loudly sobbing at the deep humiliation.

Notice how you didn't tie this back to intersex? Progress!

So, if little Benny wants to become little Jenny and attend a girls school, what is your big problem?

No problem, as long as girls schools and leagues get to freely choose whether or not to allow in males. Do you have any real world examples in mind here?

 

[theprestige]

Have some empathy.

GUARDIAN

A mother's story about how her kid became transgender and had a female identification from a very early age and about the trauma they had to suffer. (Quite unnecessarily IMV.)

I have a lot of empathy for children who are encouraged and enabled to become transsexual before puberty. I just don't think enabling their transsexual delusion is the best treatment for their condition.

 

[GlennB]

Have some empathy.

GUARDIAN

A mother's story about how her kid became transgender and had a female identification from a very early age and about the trauma they had to suffer. (Quite unnecessarily IMV.)

Do the large majority of women and girls who don't want male genitals on display in the women's changing room deserve some empathy too?

 

[dann]

Horrors! You mean it wasn't the end of civilisation as we know it, after all?

Not yet, or maybe I just haven't noticed. Somehow "the large majority of women and girls who don't want male genitals on display in the women's changing room" doesn't seem to be much of an issue around here. I don't know what is wrong with some people.

And what exactly are "male genitals on display"! Does that mean naked men? Like on the beach? What's the problem?

Or were the genitals amputated and placed in a display case?
I definitely wouldn't want to see that, so I empathize with women who also wouldn't want to see it!

 

[theprestige]

Not yet, or maybe I just haven't noticed. Somehow "the large majority of women and girls who don't want male genitals on display in the women's changing room" doesn't seem to be much of an issue around here. I don't know what is wrong with some people.

And what exactly are "male genitals on display"! Does that mean naked men? Like on the beach? What's the problem?

Or were the genitals amputated and placed in a display case?
I definitely wouldn't want to see that so I empathize with women who also wouldn't want to see it!

Cool, now show some empathy for women who don't want to share their locker rooms, shelters, prison cells, sports leagues, and historic moments with (potentially autogynaephiliac) males.

What's your proposed solution for upholding transgender rights while safeguarding against those risks? Unisex bathrooms? Elision of biological sex altogether? Just pretend there is no risk? Tell those women they'll just have to wait until every other social issue endemic to the human condition has been resolved, and then they'll already be in paradise anyway and won't have to worry about a thing?

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm pretty confident that in many of the US southern states in the 1950s, many white mothers didn't want their white teenage daughters to have a black male suddenly being allowed to sit snug alongside them on the small bench seat of a public bus.

Where was the empathy for those poor white teenage girls, and their worried mothers? What a disgrace it was that vulnerable young white girls were placed in relative danger because of those outrageous bus laws (and other black civil rights laws). I might write a strong letter to the Daily Mail about it.

 

[Myriad]

I'm pretty confident that in many of the US southern states in the 1950s, many white mothers didn't want their white teenage daughters to have a black male suddenly being allowed to sit snug alongside them on the small bench seat of a public bus.

Where was the empathy for those poor white teenage girls, and their worried mothers? What a disgrace it was that vulnerable young white girls were placed in relative danger because of those outrageous bus laws (and other black civil rights laws). I might write a strong letter to the Daily Mail about it.

Good thing we've all decided it's perfectly okay for black males to expose their penises to white teenage girls sitting snug alongside them on buses, despite their mothers' unjustified fears, amirite?