Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Myriad]

I said it was a false premise, so challenge the argument.

It is in no way a necessary premise of the quoted argument. If we postulate the existence of some hypothetical third (or even fourth, fifth, etc.) sex, that has no bearing on the legality of discriminating between the two sexes known as "male" and "female."

Braverman didn't say it (that premise), and Braverman's argument didn't imply it, so your claim that Braverman did say it is a falsehood.

 

[Francesca R]

I said it was a false premise, so challenge the argument.

It's not her premise. It's yours

 

[d4m10n]

We are none the wiser in which way Forstater, Rowling and Braverman have established their 'single sex' theory that goes beyond the legal definition of 'philosophical belief which excludes current information'.

What is your argument that single-sex services should be abolished in favor of something new?

 

[Vixen]

It is in no way a necessary premise of the quoted argument. If we postulate the existence of some hypothetical third (or even fourth, fifth, etc.) sex, that has no bearing on the legality of discriminating between the two sexes known as "male" and "female."

Braverman didn't say it (that premise), and Braverman's argument didn't imply it, so your claim that Braverman did say it is a falsehood.

I would argue it is not a given.

In some cases, when someone who is intersex is born, the doctors are unsure of if they physically look like a boy or a girl. In other cases, people who are intersex may have the body parts of a boy or a girl at birth, but may go through puberty differently, and find out they are intersex around puberty.

Often people who are intersex need medical treatments so that they can go through puberty or for other reasons. About 1 in 100 people is intersex. This is about 3.8 million people in the United States!

Again, this is important to note: being intersex is different from being transgender. People who are intersex have bodies that are physically different than we would usually expect with a girl or a boy.

Being transgender has to do with how someone feels about their gender. There are some studies that suggest that some people who are intersex may be more likely to be transgender. This depends a lot on the genetic condition.


About 1 in 200 people identifies as transgender in the United States. That is 1.4 million people just here in America!

https://www.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/transgender-intersex-sex-chromosomes


One in a hundred, or 1% of the population, is a LOT!

What scientific evidence does Braverman present that the issue is settled. None at all. She is coming from a position of bigotry, ignorance and prejudice (and she is proud of it!) So it is back to the original question: is a Transwoman a woman?

 

[Vixen]

It's not her premise. It's yours

I presented a Think Tank Talk?

 

[Vixen]

What is your argument that single-sex services should be abolished in favor of something new?

Baden Powell invented Boy Scouts and his wife Girl Guides but that doesn't mean these are natural groups, any more than Boys Schools or Girls Schools are. It is for you and Braverman to establish there is an inherent reason for such a distinction, otherwise they are just social artefacts.

How does a boy sitting in a chemistry lesson with a girl have any meaning whatsoever in terms of gender?

 

[Francesca R]

I presented a Think Tank Talk?

No you wrote it here and attributed it to her. Erroneously. Now try again

 

[d4m10n]

Baden Powell invented Boy Scouts and his wife Girl Guides but that doesn't mean these are natural groups, any more than Boys Schools or Girls Schools are. It is for you and Braverman to establish there is an inherent reason for such a distinction, otherwise they are just social artefacts.

Are you saying private associations shouldn't be legally allowed to be single-sex, or are you saying they lack philosophical justification for being single sex and need to rethink their membership qualifications?

How does a boy sitting in a chemistry lesson with a girl have any meaning whatsoever in terms of gender?

In my personal experience, he's probably trying to get in her pants.

 

[theprestige]

Baden Powell invented Boy Scouts and his wife Girl Guides but that doesn't mean these are natural groups, any more than Boys Schools or Girls Schools are. It is for you and Braverman to establish there is an inherent reason for such a distinction, otherwise they are just social artefacts.

How does a boy sitting in a chemistry lesson with a girl have any meaning whatsoever in terms of gender?

It does, however, mean that the Boy Scouts stop being Boy Scouts once they start admitting girls. That's the point Braverman is making about single sex services:They stop being single sex once they start admitting another sex.

She talks in terms of two sexes not because the law proves there are two sexes, but because there are in fact two sexes.

 

[GlennB]

I would argue it is not a given.

https://www.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/transgender-intersex-sex-chromosomes

One in a hundred, or 1% of the population, is a LOT!

What scientific evidence does Braverman present that the issue is settled. None at all. She is coming from a position of bigotry, ignorance and prejudice (and she is proud of it!) So it is back to the original question: is a Transwoman a woman?

As a matter of interest (and it applies also to your 1% claim)

"Anne Fausto-Sterling's suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling s estimate of 1.7%. "

From Pubmed here

However, Braverman's point - oft repeated in the piece we were discussing - was that if the rights of transgender people are enshrined in law then the rights of non-transgender people may be diminished. This is a point made endlessly in these threads and one I agree with. Allow trans women into women's protected spaces and the large majority in those places have had their rights eroded, and dramatically so.

 

[d4m10n]

One in a hundred, or 1% of the population, is a LOT!

Unless you're going to argue that transgenderism is somehow an intersex condition, you're barking up the wrong tree here. Nothing about intersex prevalence or experience tells us anything about whether we need to let people who went through male puberty into women's leagues and locker rooms.

 

[theprestige]

Unless you're going to argue that transgenderism is somehow an intersex condition, you're barking up the wrong tree here. Nothing about intersex prevalence or experience tells us anything about whether we need to let people who went through male puberty into women's leagues and locker rooms.

It's funny. I keep saying this conversation would be a lot different if it were actually about intersex conditions. But you know what? People keep trying to make it about intersex conditions without actually changing the conversation.

They'll bring it it up like it's an important point, worth considering as we debate what kind of access policies trans folks should have. But they never actually develop that thought into any argument that actually takes intersex people into account, or addresses any of their conditions or concerns.

So maybe instead of saying, "it doesn't matter; this isn't about intersex", I should be saying, "okay, it's about intersex; now what? Intersex conditions exist, therefore Darren Merager and Lia Thomas __________ ? Your move, intersex inclusionist", and see what happens.

Who am I kidding. We all know what happens after that: Nothing.

 

[Paul2]

Ninja'ed by GlennB.

I would argue it is not a given.

https://www.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/transgender-intersex-sex-chromosomes


One in a hundred, or 1% of the population, is a LOT!

Your source does not say where they got the 1% figure from, unfortunately.

Here is a source that discusses the percent of intersex with actual references. This source says:

Some scientists who originally said it was 1.7% revised their figure down to .37%.

But using a different definition of intersex, another researcher came up with .018%. The original definition included

"any deviation from the Platonic ideal of sexual dimorphism,"

and the other researcher defined intersex as

"those conditions in which (a) the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female, or (b) chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex."

 

[d4m10n]

I love the smell of smoked herring in the morning

Sent from my Distract-o-Matic 2k2 using Tapatalk

 

[Paul2]

I love the smell of smoked herring in the morning

Sent from my Distract-o-Matic 2k2 using Tapatalk

I'm missing the reference, but I remember the weekend I was in Sweden and the hotel breakfast buffet included herring, and I didn't want to leave.

 

[theprestige]

Is smoked herring the red stuff?

 

[d4m10n]

I'm missing the reference, but I remember the weekend I was in Sweden and the hotel breakfast buffet included herring, and I didn't want to leave.

It's a reference to the origins of "red herring."

Is smoked herring the red stuff?

Ninjas everywhere.

So maybe instead of saying, "it doesn't matter; this isn't about intersex", I should be saying, "okay, it's about intersex; now what? Intersex conditions exist, therefore Darren Merager and Lia Thomas __________ ? Your move, intersex inclusionist"

I'll try anything once.

 

[Elaedith]

There's been a push to deny that AGP is an issue by "proving" that it is normal for women to display AGP and therefore a man with AGP is just behaving like a typical woman. That is the "research" you can drive a coach and horses through.

Basically they asked all the wrong questions (accidentally on purpose), and no, women do not get sexually aroused by putting their clothes on.

Yes, I noticed Bailey and Hsu had a recent paper refuting claims of autogynephilia in woman.

 

[Elaedith]

Speaking of which, it might be nice to have a recommended book list for all things trans and/or terfy.

Here are a few recommends from me:

• Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality by Helen Joyce
• Material Girls by Kathleen Stock
• Cynical Theories by Helen Pluckrose
  

I've also read Debra Soh and Abigail Shrier, but do not really recommend them.

Interested to see whether the pro-TWAW folks have any books in mind.

This is more of a UK one, but 'The end of the world is flat' by Simon Edge is the first novel that I am aware of to satirize gender identity theory and it's promotion by heavily-funded lobby groups. It is actually a satire based on what has happed to Stonewall UK and features heretical True Earth Rejecting Globularists who refuse to accept flat-earth theory.

 

[Vixen]

Are you saying private associations shouldn't be legally allowed to be single-sex, or are you saying they lack philosophical justification for being single sex and need to rethink their membership qualifications?

In my personal experience, he's probably trying to get in her pants.

No. I am saying that labelling things 'boys' and 'girls' is a social construct.

What is inherently 'boys' about 'boys' clothes or 'girls', 'girls' clothes, other than perhaps bra and pants?

So, if little Benny wants to become little Jenny and attend a girls school, what is your big problem?

Why the need for cruelly excluding Jenny?