• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Were you really answering that on the basis of absolutely any man who wants to access these spaces and categories may do so at will?

Because that was the question.

The position outlined in the question carried the clear implication that, de facto, all women's single-sex spaces, provisions and categories are abolished - or, although not abolished on paper, that specific subset of men who want to access women's spaces may do so freely, as of right, and nobody may prevent them.

Point of order: The position outlined in the question was based on the clear implication that, de facto, all women's gender construct spaces, provisions, and categories are abolished by LJ's principle of gender self-ID.

The questions I'm asking LondonJohn are about whether he extends this principle of gender self-ID into matters of sex segregation as well. And if so, how far.
 
I am over-egging this to make what I understand to be Rolfe's point:

"Do you agree with what Hitler did?"

"Well that's a question for Jewish folks, I would be loth to offer my view, I think it's only appropriate that I stay out of this, that's surely the more progressive way to respond"

I understood damion to be saying that it should be up to the women in the restrooms and locker rooms to decide whether any men should be allowed in.

(Personally I believe that when it comes to matters of public policy, men and women are the same species, have the same capacity to feel empathy and reason abstractly, and have equal standing to debate policy for things that predominantly affect the other sex. But that's an argument for another time, I think.)
 
I understood damion to be saying that it should be up to the women in the restrooms and locker rooms to decide whether any men should be allowed in.


I think that's a very difficult position. It implies that any man may go into these places, then just wait to see if the women who happen to be there at the time make any objection. Sounds like an absolute nightmare scenario, putting the onus on the women to object, and then possibly sparking an argument along the lines of "Well I don't mind him being here, it's fine by me," on one hand, and "That's your prerogative but you can't give away my right to a single sex space on my behalf." Presumably while the man stands there meekly waiting to see whether he can stay or not.

This does illustrate a general problem. We do have women who are so woke and/or desperate for men's favour that they will happily give away our single-sex spaces, saying they don't mind, it's all fine, anything to appease the most marinalised group in society, they're women just like us, and have you seen the suicide rate!

However, we also have women belonging to particular religious groups who simply are not allowed to use a public facility if it is open to males. Moslem women in particular are required to perform a ritual washing (can't remember the actual word for it) before they perform their prayer rituals. When out and about they rely on public washrooms to do this because they must have a female-only space. If they don't have such a space they will not be able to carry out their prayer obligation when out of the house.

Now I know it's fashionable around here to mock Islam and declare that these rituals are regressive and it's a good thing if people are prevented from carrying them out. I don't agree. This is an important part of the culture of these women, and by abolishing single-sex washrooms we are excluding them from society.

I do not believe the ability of my Muslim sisters to mix freely in society should be sacrificed to appeast a bunch of men who get off on occupying spaces where they aren't meant to be.
 
I think that's a very difficult position. It implies that any man may go into these places, then just wait to see if the women who happen to be there at the time make any objection.

I can see how, with that inference, the position would look very difficult. I understood him to be saying something more like if the women of the world want a sign up saying "no men allowed", that's their prerogative. It's not up to him to say whether there should be such a sign.
 
"The women of the world" are not a homogenous group, though. Do we listen to Little Miss Woke Handmaiden gushing that her trans sisters are always welcome to "pee beside me" or do we listen to the Muslim women or the orthodox Jewish women or the victims of sexual assault or the women who simply want a man-free space to do women things in?

Do we have a vote on it? Should the wokeness of Little Miss Handmaiden (who wouldn't be personally inconvenienced if males were barred from these spaces) count for just as much as the desire of the Muslim woman to be able to go out and know she can perform her prayer rituals at the appointed time, or the orthodox Jewish woman who would quite like to have a swim some time?
 
"The women of the world" are not a homogenous group, though. Do we listen to Little Miss Woke Handmaiden gushing that her trans sisters are always welcome to "pee beside me" or do we listen to the Muslim women or the orthodox Jewish women or the victims of sexual assault or the women who simply want a man-free space to do women things in?

Do we have a vote on it? Should the wokeness of Little Miss Handmaiden (who wouldn't be personally inconvenienced if males were barred from these spaces) count for just as much as the desire of the Muslim woman to be able to go out and know she can perform her prayer rituals at the appointed time, or the orthodox Jewish woman who would quite like to have a swim some time?

Fair points. Anyway, my hope is that LondonJohn will come along soon and address the questions I've raised about gender self-ID and sex segregation policy.
 
I don't have a simple answer, mainly because of the existence of the woke handmaidens, and the low level of understanding of the issues still found among many women who would be (will be) horrified if and when they actually realise what's being proposed and what's going on.

This is always presented as an issue of "trans rights", and who would want to deny "rights" to a small minority in society who are always represented as being particularly vulnerable and marginalised? Women tend to react to a simple question on "trans rights" with a more-or-less unthinking "of course!" If they do think about it, they imagine we're talking about men who are deeply distressed by their sexed bodies, have done everything possible to address this, and simply want to be left alone to pretend to be women without bothering people. Women may feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of such people in our single-sex spaces, but they reason, it's only a very small number of people, how often am I really likely to encounter one, and surely I can put aside my discomfort to accommodate such inoffensive and marginalised people?

When opinion polls have been proposed which spell out exactly what the consequences of self-ID are (any man at all, no requirement for surgery, female-style clothes or even shaving, absolute right of access purely on his own say-so) and that this would inter alia allow any voyeur, flasher, pervert and general creep to self-ID as well, there is usually push-back against this explanation. "How dare you tell people that all transwomen are voyeurs, flashers, perverts and general creeps!" is the usual one. "It doesn't mean that at all!" is another favourite, even though it does.

However, when such explanations are offered to respondents in opinion polls, the responses change dramatically, up to around 80% (of both sexes - men know what men are like) against self-ID. And this is usually without any mention of the plight of women of particular religious faiths who can't simply suck it up and suppress their discomfort, but are busy, in increasing numbers, simply self-excluding from spaces they used to be able to use freely.

I think the progress of this thread is instructive in this case. Way back at the beginning there was a pretty overwhelming "TWAW, they must absolutely be treated as women in all circumstances and how dare you be so rude as to suggest there might be a problem with this!" attitude. It was so bad, and I was being called a bigot and a hater and a transphobe so often, that I stopped posting.

It's taken a while, and I think this is something to think about too. People don't immediately say, good grief I hadn't realised that, of course this is a mad idea, as soon as it's explained to them. I didn't myself. I spent some time arguing that the friend who was doing the explaining was exaggerating, and it really would never come to that. It took a practical demonstration (specifically exposure to the charming person known as "Tara Wolfe") to make me go back and think about what my friend had said, and then go back to him and say, sorry, you were absolutely right.

An educated voter base is vital, no less so for something like this than for other franchise issues. But it seems to take an awful lot of time and education and some people never get it.
 
I think that for most trans-activists, the issue of trans rights can be distilled down to two basic rights:

The right not to be challenged on the validity of their self-ID.

The right not to be harassed for expressing their self-ID.

And then we get into arguments about whether we're challenging Lia Thomas's validity, if we bar her from competing as a woman. Or whether we're harassing a male inmate if we insist on housing him with other males in spite of his self-ID'ing as a woman.

LondonJohn, what is your take on this?
 
Last edited:
Seen on Twitter just now.

People who demand that you use their "preferred pronouns" aren't asking for equality, they're demanding that you participate in their sexual fetish.


That, in a nutshell, is something that needs to be taken on board by those who insist that referring to transwomen as "she" is "simple courtesy". Those who are not willing to comply with the demand see it as something very different from "simple courtesy". Once we know about AGP and we understand what's behind all this "I'm a laydee!" nonsense, struggling to overcome our ingrained language habit of referring to obviously male people as "he" is simply not something many of us are prepared to do.
 
This is always presented as an issue of "trans rights", and who would want to deny "rights" to a small minority in society who are always represented as being particularly vulnerable and marginalised? Women tend to react to a simple question on "trans rights" with a more-or-less unthinking "of course!" If they do think about it, they imagine we're talking about men who are deeply distressed by their sexed bodies, have done everything possible to address this, and simply want to be left alone to pretend to be women without bothering people. Women may feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of such people in our single-sex spaces, but they reason, it's only a very small number of people, how often am I really likely to encounter one, and surely I can put aside my discomfort to accommodate such inoffensive and marginalised people?

When opinion polls have been proposed which spell out exactly what the consequences of self-ID are (any man at all, no requirement for surgery, female-style clothes or even shaving, absolute right of access purely on his own say-so) and that this would inter alia allow any voyeur, flasher, pervert and general creep to self-ID as well, there is usually push-back against this explanation. "How dare you tell people that all transwomen are voyeurs, flashers, perverts and general creeps!" is the usual one. "It doesn't mean that at all!" is another favourite, even though it does.
Opinion polls are not how civil rights marches forwards. First there is elite consensus towards some change, then there are legal changes, then you have activist groups coming in to demand action to enforce these laws, then state power is used to force change, then the media and people's natural tendency to not remember what they thought 5 minutes ago cause everybody to catch up to the new reality. If they are able to implement it now, in 20 years young women won't remember what it was like before and will doubt the bigoted ( said in all friendliness ) stories of people like you. There will be heroes of the trans-struggle discovered who little girls will be encouraged to look up to and will do school projects on. Then the opinion polls will say something different.
 
Seen on Twitter just now.




That, in a nutshell, is something that needs to be taken on board by those who insist that referring to transwomen as "she" is "simple courtesy". Those who are not willing to comply with the demand see it as something very different from "simple courtesy". Once we know about AGP and we understand what's behind all this "I'm a laydee!" nonsense, struggling to overcome our ingrained language habit of referring to obviously male people as "he" is simply not something many of us are prepared to do.

I don’t disagree. But the only direct experience I have had is with transmen. One in particular was a young person with ID showing “Jasmine” as the first name, but now known as Daniel. Only 18 years old, but sporting a beard, so was making a serious attempt at transitioning. It is very hard not to show courtesy to Daniel, and I’m certain most transgender people like this will get such courtesy, and I had no problem referring to Daniel as he. All Daniel wants to do is be accepted and does not expect special accommodations.

And then we have the Lia Thomases of the world……
 
As I've said quite often when posters have wilfully ignored the title of the thread and gone off on one about how "you're all ignoring the transmen", this is not a symmetrical situation. Women's reasons for identifying as trans are very different from those of men.

They're also not my problem. They're not the ones demanding access to women's single-sex spaces and aggressively monstering everyone who objects. I feel very sorry for them, but perhaps they don't want my sympathy. Although I have to say that the only trans-identifying female I know is a girl, looks like a girl, and has never instilled in me any desire to refer to her as "he". (Or as "Ivor" come to that.)
 
Seen on Twitter just now.




That, in a nutshell, is something that needs to be taken on board by those who insist that referring to transwomen as "she" is "simple courtesy". Those who are not willing to comply with the demand see it as something very different from "simple courtesy". Once we know about AGP and we understand what's behind all this "I'm a laydee!" nonsense, struggling to overcome our ingrained language habit of referring to obviously male people as "he" is simply not something many of us are prepared to do.
I suspect that the preferred pronoun population is a mixed bag of -

- recreational genderqueers,

- self-diagnosed gender dysphorics (who may be mistaken about the nature of their distress),

- medically diagnosed gender dysphorics attempting social transition to ameliorate their distress,

- AGP sufferers who don't realize that's what they're suffering from,

- AGP sufferers who don't see it as suffering, but as a fetish to be indulged, and

- maybe a few other categories I haven't thought of.

While I do suspect that the trans rights movement has become a trojan horse for people who have no legitimate claim to gender dysphoria and its concerns, I'm reluctant to tar everyone who declares preferred pronouns with the same Evil Argive brush.
 
When you really get down to it, trans-identifying males are almost entirely composed of AGP men (the majority) and HSTS men (a reasonably sizeable minority). However much some of them may be lying to themselves, it's about sex in both cases. A sexual fetish - either being turned on by the thought of themselves as women, or desiring to appear female to gratify their male lovers (and themselves, of course).

Either way they are enlisting me in the performance of their fetish, and I do not consent. Sorry if that causes outrage, but them's the facts.
 
As I've said quite often when posters have wilfully ignored the title of the thread and gone off on one about how "you're all ignoring the transmen", this is not a symmetrical situation. Women's reasons for identifying as trans are very different from those of men.

They're also not my problem. They're not the ones demanding access to women's single-sex spaces and aggressively monstering everyone who objects. I feel very sorry for them, but perhaps they don't want my sympathy. Although I have to say that the only trans-identifying female I know is a girl, looks like a girl, and has never instilled in me any desire to refer to her as "he". (Or as "Ivor" come to that.)

Sure I get this and I’m well aware of the topic of this thread, but there has often been references to transgender people here and thought I would throw in my personal anecdote. Not that it’s worth a lot in the grand scheme of things.
 
Oh yes. I was really just commenting on how your anecdote underlined the non-symmetrical nature of the situation.

Transmen, insofar as they pass as men (which they seem to do more easily than transwomen can pass as women, if they really put their minds to it and fill themselves up with hormones that do their bodies no good at all) will fly under the radar in most situations. I have heard from numerous online accounts that this all falls apart when they try to become "one of the lads" because their female socialisation gets in the way. (Not everyone is as good at winging this as Miranda Barry evidently was.) Also, the ones who want to be "gay men" seldom if ever fare well. Gay men don't like women and seem to get away with rejecting them more readily than lesbians are currently getting away with rejecting "trans lesbians" with penises.

But basically, they don't exhibit the same narcissistic sense of entitlement and gleeful gratification when they make people of the sex they want to be uncomfortable in their presence, as transwomen do. I'm inclined to let them get on with it, and let men deal with it if it transpires that they are transgressing male boundaries.
 
When you really get down to it, trans-identifying males are almost entirely composed of AGP men (the majority) and HSTS men (a reasonably sizeable minority). However much some of them may be lying to themselves, it's about sex in both cases. A sexual fetish - either being turned on by the thought of themselves as women, or desiring to appear female to gratify their male lovers (and themselves, of course).

Either way they are enlisting me in the performance of their fetish, and I do not consent. Sorry if that causes outrage, but them's the facts.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced those are the facts. I haven't seen any reliable data that the vast majority of transwomen are AGP and HSTS men.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom