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Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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I like this 'progressive stack'. It makes sense. Wind back to the 1950's and imagine some guy declaring, 'I am a heterosexual man and I am strongly opposed to recognising homosexual men the right to lead their preferred life style without being criminalised'.
The conversation about transsexual rights would be very different, if it were actually about just leaving transsexuals alone to think what they want and do what they want with consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes.

But that's not what the conversation is actually about.
 
It should be self-evident that if you take a stance on Twitter to state, 'I am opposed to single-sex marriage/veganism/climate change advocates/[insert your own cause célèbre here]', then you can expect a backlash from people passionate about those causes. Why did JK Rowling take that stance on transgender at all as it doesn't affect her?

Maybe she should go into politics or social campaigning if she has a genuine cause other than to be unbearable.


It does affect her. Not as much as it affects women who aren't loaded with money, but she understands that what affects one woman affects them all.

Do you even know the content of the first tweet she posted about this? She said she supported trans people (and everyone) to live their best life, but that it was wrong that someone (Maya Forstater) should lose her job for saying that biological sex is real.

What is there about that you think is "unbearable"?
 
It should be self-evident that if you take a stance on Twitter to state, 'I am opposed to single-sex marriage/veganism/climate change advocates/[insert your own cause célèbre here]', then you can expect a backlash from people passionate about those causes. Why did JK Rowling take that stance on transgender at all as it doesn't affect her?
Maybe she should go into politics or social campaigning if she has a genuine cause other than to be unbearable.

Her reasons are stated here.
 
Problem with people like JK Rowling, they have a bit of success and fame and they think that gives them authority to spout off on social issues.
Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Ah. Yes I kind of see that.

So you're saying that because she spouts off on social issues, then you think an appropriate remedy for this is that she should be raped, and must be killed? Preferably next, mmm?

It's a good thing that you or I don't mouth off on social issues eh? Yeah, definitely. I never would anyway.
 
I like this 'progressive stack'. It makes sense.

Authoritarianism has always been appealing to some people. So has the supremacy of group identity over individual identity, and the idea of collective guilt.


Wind back to the 1950's and imagine some guy declaring, 'I am a heterosexual man and I am strongly opposed to recognising homosexual men the right to lead their preferred life style without being criminalised'.

His logic isn't actually any different than yours, he just wants the stack ordered in a different direction.

So step back, Clint Eastwood and John Wayne, (and JK Rowling), let's hear what the downtrodden have to say for a change. You've had your say. Now it is their turn.

You say that as if speech is some finite thing which will run out if we use it too much. But that's obviously wrong.

Now, my attention is finite, but you have no business telling me what I can and cannot do with my attention. That's fascist garbage.
 
It does affect her. Not as much as it affects women who aren't loaded with money, but she understands that what affects one woman affects them all.

Do you even know the content of the first tweet she posted about this? She said she supported trans people (and everyone) to live their best life, but that it was wrong that someone (Maya Forstater) should lose her job for saying that biological sex is real.

What is there about that you think is "unbearable"?

I looked up Maya Forstater and whilst I have no idea on whether she was rightly or wrongly dismissed, I do believe her views and the way she stated them to be misconceived. I agree with Judge Tayler, who, incidentally is a very fine judge, one of the best on the Employment Law circuit, really knows his stuff and his reasoning is sound, that 'believing in biological sex' was not a protected characteristic as determined by the Equality Act. I understand know why Attorney General Braverman is changing it. Forstater won on Appeal and good luck to her.

I am still not clear why JK Rowling stuck her oar in.
 
I am still not clear why JK Rowling stuck her oar in.

Why did you post in this thread? Presumably because you care about the topic. Why is anything more than that required, of either you or Rowling?
 
Her reasons are stated here.

Thank you for the link, which I read with interest. We are none the wiser. Rowling sets out her stall like an obsequious waiter, over-egging the pudding with appeals to emotion and special pleading. No attempt is made to explain the other point of view other than to make fun of it and ridicule it. I have no idea why Rowling included a stream of consciousness appealing to one's basest instincts in the form of telling us of her personal experience of domestic violence and sexual violence. Presumably, we are to conclude that this is what transgender activists stand for from this specious reasoning. A highly manipulative piece of work, of which Victorian pamphleteers would have been proud.
 
Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Ah. Yes I kind of see that.

So you're saying that because she spouts off on social issues, then you think an appropriate remedy for this is that she should be raped, and must be killed? Preferably next, mmm?

It's a good thing that you or I don't mouth off on social issues eh? Yeah, definitely. I never would anyway.

Oh please. Report it to the police as a breach of the Malicious Communications Act and also to Twitter who will soon close down an account making such a threat.
 
Oh please. Report it to the police as a breach of the Malicious Communications Act and also to Twitter who will soon close down an account making such a threat.

The threats should never have been made. Rowling made no legitimate provocation to invite those threats. The fact that authorities may deal with such threats does not excuse them, and does not justify you blaming Rowling for them.
 
Thank you for the link, which I read with interest. We are none the wiser.
On the contrary, you asked why did she get involved, and she mentioned several reasons why.

Rowling sets out her stall like an obsequious waiter, over-egging the pudding with appeals to emotion and special pleading.
If you want to say where specifically in the letter she did that, we could then discuss it.

No attempt is made to explain the other point of view other than to make fun of it and ridicule it.
There's nothing wrong with not explaining an opposite view when one is putting forth their own view.

I have no idea why Rowling included a stream of consciousness appealing to one's basest instincts in the form of telling us of her personal experience of domestic violence and sexual violence.
It's not an appeal to a base instinct to connect sexual violence with issues of access to female spaces. It's logically connected. Do you not see the logic?

Presumably, we are to conclude that this is what transgender activists stand for from this specious reasoning.
Where, exactly, is her specious reasoning? Please quote from her letter.

A highly manipulative piece of work, of which Victorian pamphleteers would have been proud.
Which was the most manipulative place, in your opinion? Again, specifics will allow discussion.
 
I can see how she has kind of borrowed from the 2nd world war. That is certainly obvious in the later books. I read them to my kids about 6 years ago. Maybe fantastic beasts focuses on it more? I have not seen any of that. I just assumed the original series was trying to kind of map the parallel stories of the real and wizarding world onto one another. It seems very thin and underdeveloped kind of allegory if that's what it is supposed to be. It's like if you look at house elves as some allegory of slavery, it seems cringey, incredibly obvious, and preachy. If you read it as a vehicle for Hermione to illustrating how cringey, incredibly obvious, and preachy she was, I thought it worked. Similarly with pretty much the whole of the world around Voldemort, it's all 2 dimensional cardboard cut-outs that are there to create a backdrop for a few characters who are genuinely well developed, Snape in particular. Turning into an allegory for fascism seems like the Star Wars ring theory. There are as many elements that fit as don't. That, and your article was some Tumblr looking thing about the death eaters being the KKK rather than about fascism. When you go that deep into Harry Potter, you just find assorted stuff that she has gotten from different places that only appears to fit together because it is only as fleshed out as it needs to be. I'm sure one could make it an allegory of all sorts of things by picking through the elements she borrowed from.

Your everyday wine mom doesn't harp on about how everyday folks could easily slide into quiet acquiescence of a new totalitarian regime.
No, but presumably Rowling doesn't talk about this stuff continually without interruption at parties either. Having said that, her views on it are the most generic, you might have watched something on the history channel once take that has been articulated over and over and over for the past 77 years. As I was trying to say, if she isn't qualified to opine about trans-women, she certainly isn't about fascism and WW2.
 
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As I was trying to say, if she isn't qualified to opine about trans-women, she certainly isn't about fascism and WW2.
Death Eaters are obsessed with strength through blood purity and strict racial hierarchy, so that's basic Klan doctrine. But add in their emphasis on a single ruler over all magical Britian and turning the ministry into a place where people are vetted for right thinking and proper ancestry by state supported secret police and now it's transparently an allegory for fascism.

What I'm saying here is that JKR has been doing political commentary the entire time, some people just started recently complaining about it because she strayed from her assigned rung on the progressive stack.

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Death Eaters are obsessed with strength through blood purity and strict racial hierarchy, so that's basic Klan doctrine. But add in their emphasis on a single ruler over all magical Britian and turning the ministry into a place where people are vetted for right thinking and proper ancestry by state supported secret police and now it's transparently an allegory for fascism.

What I'm saying here is that JKR has been doing political commentary the entire time, some people just started recently complaining about it because she strayed from her assigned rung on the progressive stack.

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That, sure. The one thing to add to your progressive stack thing is that you have to have the right views. There is black, and there is politically black. There is trans and politically-trans. Blair White may be trans, but she doesn't do the pseudo-marxist game of oppressed and oppressor class struggle stuff, so she isn't politically trans. You have to be politically-X for the privilege stack to grant your experiences special status. You have to have the views that correct theory says your class should have before your views count.

I still am not convinced about it being an allegory for anything. As I said, she has clearly borrowed heavily from a bunch of stuff. One can read it as that, but one can find the Ring Theory in Star Wars. If it was intended as an allegory, I think that that is one of the many weak elements of a series of books that have some surprisingly good elements.
 
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On the contrary, you asked why did she get involved, and she mentioned several reasons why.

If you want to say where specifically in the letter she did that, we could then discuss it.

There's nothing wrong with not explaining an opposite view when one is putting forth their own view.

It's not an appeal to a base instinct to connect sexual violence with issues of access to female spaces. It's logically connected. Do you not see the logic?

Where, exactly, is her specious reasoning? Please quote from her letter.

Which was the most manipulative place, in your opinion? Again, specifics will allow discussion.

I am not going to revisit Rowling's essay as it lacks substance. However, it is predicated on what Rowling deems in support of Maya Forstater who clims her employment contract was not renewed because of her belief in biological sex.

In 2019, Forstater's consulting contract for CGD was not renewed after she published a series of social media messages describing transgender women as men during online discourse regarding potential reforms to the Gender Recognition Act, which led to concerns being raised by staff at CGD.
wiki

Whilst indeed Forstater is entitled to hold whatever belief she likes, I am not sure what her tweeting has to do with the workplace. ISTM she brought her personal crusades into the workplace. It doesn't make it a tort if your bosses take exception to your campaigning. Except, she tried to dress it up as being protected by the Equality Act and I am afraid my BS detector has remained on the 'BS detected' stage. Her job was as follows:

Forstater, a tax expert and researcher on sustainable business and international development, was contracted in January 2015 by CGD, a think-tank on international development, as a visiting fellow.[10][11][12] Forstater has had academic research on corporate responsibility and illicit financial flows published by the United Nations Industrial Development Organization and the Chr. Michelsen Institute.[13][14] She was also previously a researcher for the United Nations Environment Programme Inquiry into; The Design of a Sustainable Financial Systems.
ibid

What on earth that has to do with her views on transgender issues, I have no idea.

Anyway, having lost the first merits hearing, she crowdfunded £120K and won on appeal. It was all politics. Rowling leaned in but couldn't seem to present a coherent argument in her support of Forstater other than 'I am a woman'.

Ho hum.
 
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