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Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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Maybe you can, but what about women who "doesn’t look feminine enough"?
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Let's just say that it's still an improvement on having to give every individual a fertility test before you can refer to them as male or female.

For goodness sake, nobody is claiming that the occasional mistake isn't made, or that idiots who can't count invalidate the usefulness of arithmetic.
 
Vixen said:
Fair point. However, have you ever stopped to wonder why the NHS (UK national health service) has started using non-specific pronouns?
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Yes we have. It's been a recurring topic of discussion in this thread, being closely concerned with the central debate.

Is it really a hijack by rights activists?
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All signs point to yes.

But wait! These are medical guys. Perhaps they know something about gender that we don't, hence the - on the face of it - 'very silly' (according to the right wing tabloids) - references to 'people who give birth' or 'chest feeding'.
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Or perhaps "medical guys" are just as capable of being naïve jackasses and unprofessional scumbags as any other profession. Appeal to authority won't get you as far as you hope, in this discussion.

Maybe the idea that 'man is man and woman is woman and n'e'er the twain shall meet' (like East and West) is not so clear cut as has been previously thought?
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Maybe, but a much more reasonable explanation, given the evidence, is ideological capture.
 
Ahhh still on the old "ideological capture" nonsense!

I guess the APA, the WHO, and various other expert bodies with global reach (all of whom have their fair share of females throughout the organisation, incidentally...) have been "ideologically captured" as well LOL.

I suppose this is what happens when one has convinced oneself that one's position is correct and unimpeachable: the necessary by-product of that sort of "thinking" is that everybody - whether individuals or institutions - that do not share one's view must be wrong. And then one progresses seamlessly into the ludicrous world of "ideological capture", "men telling women what to do" and other assorted bollocks (bollocks that stands in opposition to actual facts and evidence, by the way).

Still, I continue to enjoy (in my increasingly-infrequent visits) the ongoing portentous pronouncements in this insignificant little thread that a small overinvested cabal - not one of whose members has the expertise or experience to hold a suitably-qualified oppositional opinion on this issue - has "solved the case" and figured everything out correctly. Keep up the great work!
 
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LondonJohn said:
I guess the APA, the WHO, and various other expert bodies with global reach...have been "ideologically captured" as well LOL.
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What exactly did the American Psychiatric Association (APA) publish which gives you this idea?

ETA: I assume LJ is just throwing out random appeals to authority again, but maybe he actually has something specific and substantive in mind here.
 
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d4m10n said:
Originally Posted by Steersman:
Try searching for my comments on clownfish.
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No luck. Any specific problematic consequences come to mind?
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Seems many of them have been cast into the Outer Darkness - AKA AAH.

Maybe yours was collateral damage, or maybe "clownfish" is a proscribed term in this neck of the woods ...

d4m10n said:
If you're arguing from clownfish, you're losing.
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But I think my comment, the one you had responded to there, addresses your requirements - you might try getting past the "clownfish" this time around ...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13872503&postcount=432

The structure-absent-function schlock of Hilton and company conflicts very badly with the characterization of clownfish as sequential hermaphrodites.
 
Rolfe said:
I'm sure this has been mentioned before.

The document that reveals the remarkable tactics of trans lobbyists

Dentons campaigns for kids to switch gender without parental approval

You might also follow the money, and look at the activities of the people who are making fortunes providing medications and surgeries to those unfortunates who deliver themselves up as permanent medical patients.

The Billionaire Family Pushing Synthetic Sex Identities
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Seems that I had bookmarked that Spectator article several years ago though don't recollect delving very far into it.

But in the same vein and ICYMI, you might also "enjoy" several articles by Joanna Williams, author of The Corrosive Impact of Transgender Ideology:

https://civitas.org.uk/content/files/2454-A-The-Corrosive-Impact-of-TI-ppi-110-WEB.pdf

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/03/04/how-woman-became-a-dirty-word/
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/07/the-making-of-trans-children/
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/06/19/how-trans-ideology-took-over/
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/suella-braverman-is-right-to-take-on-trans-teaching-in-schools
 
shuttlt said:
If they have made this incredible discovery, that somehow medical research has uncovered the true definition of the non-medical concept "woman".... they might share the details of the discovery, rather than treating it in the same way they have every other bit of political correctness that they have mindlessly hoovered up and implemented for decades.
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Things have come to a pretty pass when it's actually necessary to write a letter like this to the NHS Confederation.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/healthcare/sex-matters-writes-to-the-nhs-confederation/

Undertaking actions driven by “trans allyship”, such as allowing males to use women’s toilets and showers, or berating a staff member who does not wish to be referred to as “cis” or who expresses gender-critical beliefs, is likely to be in breach of the anti-discrimination and anti-harassment provisions in Equality Act. It therefore creates liability risks for NHS bodies, and undermines their culture of inclusion.
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Steersman said:
: rolleyes :

Try searching for my comments on clownfish.
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Humans aren't clownfish. I have no policy concerns about clownfish. I'm interested in specific policy questions unique to humans in human societies.

Can you describe any specific problems you see with the structural definition of sex, and the terms male and female to refer to it, in that context?
 
LondonJohn said:
I guess the APA, the WHO, and various other expert bodies with global reach (all of whom have their fair share of females throughout the organisation, incidentally...) have been "ideologically captured" as well LOL.
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If they're advocating that men be housed in women's prisons if they request it, then yeah, I guess they have.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Why don't you start with the evidence and reasoning the APA and the WHO have published, for why gender self-ID justifies transcending sex segregation, and we can go from there.

This is another variation on the same request we've been making of you since the beginning of this thread.
 
I have some sympathy with the position that "all these public bodies and organisations can't simply have succumbed to an irrational and partisan agenda pushed at them by a self-interested pressure group." On the face of it, it seems absurd to imagine that such a thing could happen.

Except it has. It quite obviously has. It's hard to gauge the extent of the buy-in when we know that many employees are only going along with it out of fear for their jobs and fear of social ostracisation, but it's pretty extensive. By the time you get to medical schools issuing apologies to students that the contents of lectures on human anatomy and reproduction are "not in line with our standards on inclusivity" and will be changed, you're not in Kansas any more.

I know how it's been done, but I still have huge difficulty understanding how it worked. Shuttit probably has more ideas about this.
 
Rolfe said:
Shuttit probably has more ideas about this.
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:-) One after another Steersman spoke to them and they all went mad. Many such cases.

Seriously though, is it really such a unique occurrence? Maybe look at religious revivals. Ideas can take hold and burn through groups of people very easily. I could speak to the specifics here, but it would probably count as a derail. They are kind of well known now though.
 
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Oh, I know. Groups of people. But this is far more extensive. Healthcare. Universities. Sport. Government. Policing. The criminal justice system. Schools. Pretty much every sizeable business you can name.

All more or less at once. With almost all dissenting voices frightened into silence. It's astonishing.
 
Rolfe said:
Oh, I know. Groups of people. But this is far more extensive. Healthcare. Universities. Sport. Government. Policing. The criminal justice system. Schools. Pretty much every sizeable business you can name.

All more or less at once. With almost all dissenting voices frightened into silence. It's astonishing.
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I haven't got far enough in the book I was reading on British History, but it implied that the surge in religiosity around Methodism in the UK in the 19th century may have looked something like this. Abolitionism, pacifism, the creation of the Labour Party etc... lots of stuff came from that. There are, I think, unique features of the current case.

Reading suggestion... Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Possessed. I think this is kind of about the same phenomenon. I haven't read it in 25 years, so the memory is fading.
 
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Whether or not that's the case, I would suggest that's a far less mad situation. Abolition (of slavery?), pacifism and political representation for the working classes are considered generally good things by a great many people, and do not obviously re-write reality to the detriment of half the population.

If a pressure group managed to capture the ideology of the entirety of society to make everyone a pacifist I'd be a lot less concerned.
 
Steersman said:
Conflicts rather badly with the biological definitions for the sexes.
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The biological definition of the sexes has already been demonstrated to be a structural definition. This is attested in the usage examples offered by all the mainstream lexicons, and by the usage in reputable scientific journals, by actual biologists.
 
Rolfe said:
Whether or not that's the case, I would suggest that's a far less mad situation. Abolition (of slavery?), pacifism and political representation for the working classes are considered generally good things by a great many people, and do not obviously re-write reality to the detriment of half the population.
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They are also founded on a coherent theory of humanity and human rights. Trans rights activism is not.
 
There are certainly multiple examples from history of mass buy-in to blatantly delusional positions. But I can't think of another one where all dissent was silenced by authority in the way that's happening now.

There were always people who didn't think that buying tulip bulbs was a sure way to make a fortune, and so on. And they weren't ostracised from society for saying so.

The witchcraft mania might be the closest. I don't know about dissent from the belief that there were witches all over the place, or how such dissenters would be treated.
 
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