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Afterlife: Proof!

On a hot day, the master was flapping a wet cloth to cool himself. A monk asked him, "Master, the circular fan was invented here in China, true? Why then do you resort to such a peasantish means to cool yourself?" Without speaking, the master rose, opened his breech clout, and urinated on the monk's feet.

"If your feet are cool, why are you not entirely cool?" enquired the master.

"Because pee is hot!" exclaimed the monk.

The master bowed profoundly. "All honor to this living Buddha," he said.

The monk, declining to bow, opened his clout and peed on the master's feet. The day continued to be hot.
 
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Sure. That is one way to look at things. And in doing so it comfortably guarantees that only lab-verifiable, repeatable results can ever be attributed to the paranormal. Because of course, the paranormal should be entirely content to manifest itself on the terms of scientific method.

When every supposedly paranormal phenomena which is amenable to scientific testing is easily demonstrated to have a mundane explanation it is reasonable to assume that these sort of untestable anecdotes do also, until and unless there is good reason to think otherwise.
 
Sure. That is one way to look at things. And in doing so it comfortably guarantees that only lab-verifiable, repeatable results can ever be attributed to the paranormal. Because of course, the paranormal should be entirely content to manifest itself on the terms of scientific method.


What’s the alternative?

The progress of humanity has accelerated ever since we started embracing the scientific method and setting aside supernatural explanations for the way things work. There just is not a better way to look for those explanations.

“The paranormal,” isn’t really even a cohesive alternative. It’s really just a catch all term for a disparate variety of beliefs that don’t actually explain anything and often contradict themselves and each other -not to mention actual scientific observation. There is no explanatory power in something like “ghosts.” It just raises more questions than it answers.
 
What’s the alternative?

The progress of humanity has accelerated ever since we started embracing the scientific method and setting aside supernatural explanations for the way things work. There just is not a better way to look for those explanations.

“The paranormal,” isn’t really even a cohesive alternative. It’s really just a catch all term for a disparate variety of beliefs that don’t actually explain anything and often contradict themselves and each other -not to mention actual scientific observation. There is no explanatory power in something like “ghosts.” It just raises more questions than it answers.


Well, I don't know that there is currently any alternative.

However, I don't think we should handwave away every odd, unexplained occurrence. For example, in this case, no cause was determined.

I don't think we need to create a mythical story about what happened, framing it as a soul leaving a body or anything like that. We should acknowledge it as a very unusual occurrence and coincidence/timing, at minimum. Even if we aren't going to investigate further.
 
Well, I don't know that there is currently any alternative.

However, I don't think we should handwave away every odd, unexplained occurrence. For example, in this case, no cause was determined.

I don't think we need to create a mythical story about what happened, framing it as a soul leaving a body or anything like that. We should acknowledge it as a very unusual occurrence and coincidence/timing, at minimum. Even if we aren't going to investigate further.

It's not a question of handwaving away anything. It's about not positing something not only unproven, but something that is entirely unevidenced, and that also lacks any kind of internal coherence or consistency, as a plausible explanation for anything.
 
It's not a question of handwaving away anything. It's about not positing something not only unproven, but something that is entirely unevidenced, and that also lacks any kind of internal coherence or consistency, as a plausible explanation for anything.


I don't think it is really about that. I think it is more about a clear reluctance for some skeptics to even acknowledge odd events as being....odd.

Once you smite such phenomena at that level, you are no more critically thinking than a believer.
 
I don't think it is really about that. I think it is more about a clear reluctance for some skeptics to even acknowledge odd events as being....odd.

Once you smite such phenomena at that level, you are no more critically thinking than a believer.

Hey! Nobody's going to take away my odd experience. I still think it was odd.
I just don't leap the lightyear distance from that to spirits who survive death and can toggle light switches.

I'm not running from web forum to web forum claiming my odd experience amounts to proof of the afterlife.

For all I know it was a trickster multi-dimensional, a Leprechaun, pranking me. There have been lots of Leprechaun sightings!

Well, I don't for all I know know that. It's just as an unsupported leap of weird speculation.

What I know is that it doesn't give me a scrap of actionable, verifiable information about an afterlife.

That and I confess I'm still glad I shared it with H.W.'s family, as it gave them a little comfort (though dubious) and a piece of family folklore. :wackysmile:
 
Well, I don't know that there is currently any alternative.

However, I don't think we should handwave away every odd, unexplained occurrence. For example, in this case, no cause was determined.

I don't think we need to create a mythical story about what happened, framing it as a soul leaving a body or anything like that. We should acknowledge it as a very unusual occurrence and coincidence/timing, at minimum. Even if we aren't going to investigate further.


It is indeed an odd and coincidental occurrence. I don’t believe anyone here would say that it’s not.

It’s a cool and even kind of spooky story. I have several I could tell. But stories are just that. We can’t even be sure that the story is being recounted exactly as it occurred -no offense to Apathia. Human memory is unreliable and details are often filled in later.

My mom told me a story about 3 weeks after my dad died. She said that she was resting and she felt someone sit next to her on the bed. A hand touched her shoulder and she heard my dad tell her something to the effect of, “don’t worry, everything will be better tomorrow.” She turned to look but there was no one there. Next day, she checks the mail and there are two checks: one is a life insurance payout she didn’t know my dad had and the other is my dad’s final paycheck and productivity bonus. Turns out, someone at the company was looking out for her.

The obvious explanation is that she had a dream about my dad and then the checks coincidentally arrived. She insisted that it was my dad visiting her and telling her about the checks. Now I’m not going to argue with my mom about it but I don’t believe that. I can’t even be sure she is relating the story correctly. I can’t even be sure that it ever happened the way she said it did. All I know is that she got an unexpected windfall because the owner of the company my dad worked for was a good dude.
 
I don't think anyone here denies that odd things happen. We've all experienced odd coincidences, and events we cannot easily explain. Sceptics just tend not to assume that unexplained means inexplicable.
 
We can’t even be sure that the story is being recounted exactly as it occurred -no offense to Apathia. Human memory is unreliable and details are often filled in later.

No offense to be taken. I wrote the above account a couple of days after.
I went on to tell people the story for years. One day I went back and read it. Lo and behold, my story had drifted from what was there. In time it became a bit more fantastic. I forget now how I'd embellished it with the retelling. I suspect the two days after memory may be somewhat off. We all like a good story and unconsciously structure our narratives for their audience.

Thanks for sharing yours, or rather your mother's.

"We all like a good story."
It seems to me that the paranormal, the cryptid, the UFO often take a series of unexplained events and add agency and even plot.
A momentary glitch in the wiring and the toggle of a light switch happen to occur at the time a person is dying. My penchant for narration connects those events in such a way as to have a paranormal agent (aka ghost).

So much of the paranormal is story time. F=MA isn't a story. Evolution isn't a story. Science is the repeatable process of what and how. Paranormal consists of single narratives of intention by a protagonist or a cosmic tinkerer instead of a demonstrable process. The self is a protagonist we continue to narrate and want to narrate beyond the end of natural processes.
I think it comes natural to us to craft and tell the story. It's the way we most easily fool ourselves by making the story prior to the what and how.

Before Bacon et al with an empirical methodology for discovering the processes of natural events, we tended to rely on just so stories for events outside the kin of our understanding.

A friend asked me today if consciousness proved the existence of God. There's another solid chunk of story telling!
What are these theologs going to do when we're able to create an artificial sentience? When we'll be able to account for the processes that create phantasm of self?
Will some Buddhist sect claim that karma is being incarnated into these artificial brains? I suspect so. Already popular East Asian Buddhism has reincarnation into household goods or discarded tools becoming sentient. It's story time!

I love stories. I write them for my own entertainment (and to keep my 71 year old head from rusting). But one should beware the tendency to rush to a story.
(especially the ones that make one the hero, the victim, or the villain)

The anecdotal tale does not amount to evidence.
 
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I don't think anyone here denies that odd things happen. We've all experienced odd coincidences, and events we cannot easily explain. Sceptics just tend not to assume that unexplained means inexplicable.
This. I was just about to say the exact same thing. It's okay to say "I don't know what that was and I can't think of a way to reliably find out".
 
I don't think it is really about that. I think it is more about a clear reluctance for some skeptics to even acknowledge odd events as being....odd.

Once you smite such phenomena at that level, you are no more critically thinking than a believer.

And from where did you get this 'clear reluctance'? Not this thread, nor the 'alien contact proof' one either.
 
Warp, do you mistake a lack of reaction to odd events to not acknowledging them?

If the event was just a light in the front yard five months ago, that a guy caught on a commercial grade security camera there is little to react to.
No damages, no changes, no lasting effects to note.

A distraught person not really minding the mundane in the world around them might leave a faucet running or a light switch not fully flipped.
And not be in the mindset to care about such things at the moment.

We don't need a field of experts in anything to study random unusual mishaps in life. Especially those with no lasting impact. Most of the time it's little more than human perception errors.
 
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A friend asked me today if consciousness proved the existence of God. There's another solid chunk of story telling!
What are these theologs going to do when we're able to create an artificial sentience? When we'll be able to account for the processes that create phantasm of self?
Will some Buddhist sect claim that karma is being incarnated into these artificial brains? I suspect so. Already popular East Asian Buddhism has reincarnation into household goods or discarded tools becoming sentient. It's story time!

Lister : I don't mean to say anything out of place here, Kryten, but that is completely whacko Jacko. There is no such thing as 'Silicon Heaven'.
Kryten : Then where do all the calculators go?
Lister : They don't go anywhere. They just die.
Kryten : But surely you believe that God is in all things? Aren't you a pantheist?
Lister : Yeah, but I just don't think it applies to kitchen utensils. I'm not a FRYING pantheist. Machines do not have souls. Computers and calculators do not have an afterlife. You don't get hairdryers with tiny little wings, sitting on clouds, playing harps.
Kryten : But of course you do. For is it not written in the Electronic Bible, "The iron shall lie down with the lamp"? Oh, it's common sense, sir. If there weren't a better life to look forward to, why on Earth would machines spend the whole of their lives servicing humankind? Now that would be really dumb.
Lister : Yeah, it makes sense. Silicon Heaven.
Kryten : Don't be sad, Mr. David, sir. I am going to a far, far better place.
Lister : Just out of interest, is Silicon Heaven the same place as human heaven?
Kryten : Human heaven? Goodness me! Humans don't go to heaven. Oh no, someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts.
 
"The iron shall lie down with the lamp"

I want to see that ion the cover of Watchtower Magazine.
 
The dog with the towel isn't a ghost, it's just amusing.

But look at the shadowy figure of an elephant on the right side of the water, below the tree.

Yeah, explain THAT!
 
The dog with the towel isn't a ghost, it's just amusing.

But look at the shadowy figure of an elephant on the right side of the water, below the tree.

Yeah, explain THAT!

That's Undercover Elephant. He's on a steak out.
 

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