Afterlife: Proof!

[Apathia]

There's most always an anomaly, a detail or instance where the data doesn't come out as the theory expects, or particulars the established theory can not explain. Or maybe it's just the one off glitch. The Standard Model of Particle Physics has a few conundrums. However, in the face of them, Physical Science doesn't chuck it all in the insinkerator and start from scratch.

But crackpottery takes an anomaly as the opportunity to launch into a wild speculation that ignores the empirical facts upon which the theory was founded.
The Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but an oblate spheroid. So, see, it's not a sphere, therefore Flat Earth.

Once people begin to build their fantastical castle upon unexplained debris, established Science becomes at fault, because it didn't address or explain the anomaly. The proud owner of Castle Pseudoscience will defend his precious walls as reality, just because the debris isn't accounted for.
So, there's no explanation about the light switch in H.W.'s Kitchen, therefore his ghost did it.

Ok. I'll shut up now.
Who am I talking to? Every sceptic here knows these things.
And anyone who's clinging to their fantasy, isn't reading this thread, or doesn't think this thread has anything thing of relevance to them.

 

[MBDK]

Who am I talking to? Every sceptic here knows these things.
And anyone who's clinging to their fantasy, isn't reading this thread, or doesn't think this thread has anything thing of relevance to them.

Certainly true at face value, but the fact that you, and others, continue to point out the actual logical process confirms the existence of rationality; whereas, silence could indicate a fundamental erosion of the tools necessary to make intelligent decisions and conclusions. Also, analyzing the many types of logical fallacies there are is an aid to prevent ourselves from misusing them and being coerced by them. This also ultimately helps to strengthen valid arguments.

 

[Apathia]

You're right.

Looks like the usual cycle has repeated and the crock-pottery thread that this was a critical parody of is practically done.
Shortly another will appear with "proof" of superstition.

 

[Apathia]

"He thought he saw an Argument
That proved he was the Pope:
He looked again, and found it was
A Bar of Mottled Soap.
“A fact so dread,” he faintly said,
“Extinguishes all hope!”"

Lewis Carroll

 

[8enotto]

The belief in woo can be something that needs to be pounded into the heads of others, an honest intent to educate the heathens to a truth or outright insults to the heathens.
Assuming it is a genuine belief by the holder.

Trolls are a very different story.

Deeply religious folks coming out of Churchville, Alabama and going into areas of a widely varied range of beliefs, and no beliefs, tend to be dearly offended by the rest around them. Use Xmas instead of Christmas, say godammit and get instantly corrected.
It's really hard to respond to this idiocy without calling an otherwise rational person an idiot. So with me they win one round then I try to avoid them forever afterwards.

That or risk a month of arguing with him over a wide range of his woo.

 

[Apathia]

The belief in woo can be something that needs to be pounded into the heads of others, an honest intent to educate the heathens to a truth or outright insults to the heathens.
Assuming it is a genuine belief by the holder.

Trolls are a very different story.

Deeply religious folks coming out of Churchville, Alabama and going into areas of a widely varied range of beliefs, and no beliefs, tend to be dearly offended by the rest around them. Use Xmas instead of Christmas, say godammit and get instantly corrected.
It's really hard to respond to this idiocy without calling an otherwise rational person an idiot. So with me they win one round then I try to avoid them forever afterwards.

That or risk a month of arguing with him over a wide range of his woo.

One of the things I was told in my "natural healing" days was to focus on the healthy areas of a person's life. Strengthen those, cultivate those, and let their health address their illness.

There's some truth to this in a way, that is, in respect to pernicious beliefs.
I ignore their delusions and encourage where they are courageous enough to accept and follow facts.

But of course there are people who just must push their crap at me and judge me by it. I give those an extra friendly distance.
I'm honest. I tell them I don't buy it. And yes, I let them think I'm a
feeble-minded snowflake or committing intellectual hubris. I don't need them to "see the light."
But I do know when I should tread carefully around them, and when it's a waste of energy to engage them about anything.

 

[8enotto]

Its nearly always a complete waste of time in Mexico. Everyone and their uncle is some sort of christian and makes like they are religious. Actual church attendance is optional but one dare not challenge lifelong beliefs.

Mob rule at its finest. A very polite and self righteous mob but totally confident they are always in the right.

That's why my personal policy of never even stating my beliefs and losing them.
A rather odd sidenote is many believe you must be christian or some form of satanic. There is no middle ground of non belief they can imagine.

 

[Warp12]

So, maybe I missed it...what was the determination as to why the light switch was flipped?

 

[Apathia]

So, maybe I missed it...what was the determination as to why the light switch was flipped?

None to this date.
Then if there's no explanation for that, there really are ghosts?
Nope. That doesn't really follow, which is the point of the thread.

I suppose there's the off chance I did it myself; messed with the switch just after the light first flickered or went off, and then just didn't remember I had.
That could be it. It's better than ghost did it.

 

[Warp12]

I suppose there's the off chance I did it myself; messed with the switch just after the light first flickered or went off, and then just didn't remember I had.
That could be it. It's better than ghost did it.

How so? Because it better fits your skeptical view of the supernatural?

 

[Apathia]

How so? Because it better fits your skeptical view of the supernatural?

Because it's not superstitious or magical thinking.
I'm going to need much more empirical evidence to haul in the supernatural as an explanation.

And unfortunately, the supernatural as defined undercuts natural empirical explanation and understanding to open the door to a chaos of just so stories in an insane world.

 

[mumblethrax]

Light switches turning off by themselves isn't all that unusual. They're spring-loaded, and will eventually wear out.

 

[Apathia]

Light switches turning off by themselves isn't all that unusual. They're spring-loaded, and will eventually wear out.

I thought of that, so toggled the switch a few times to see if it were loose, or had just been not fully on. The switch seemed firm.

Stuff happens. Glasses slide and fall off counters without cats pushing them. Doors pop open. Floors creak. But wtf doesn't prove the paranormal.

I've seen those youtubes of claimed poltergeist activity, with lots of stuff leaping about. But since that's easily staged, I can't take them seriously.

 

[Warp12]

I thought of that, so toggled the switch a few times to see if it were loose, or had just been not fully on. The switch seemed firm.

Stuff happens. Glasses slide and fall off counters without cats pushing them. Doors pop open. Floors creak. But wtf doesn't prove the paranormal.

I've seen those youtubes of claimed poltergeist activity, with lots of stuff leaping about. But since that's easily staged, I can't take them seriously.

Well, from a strictly mechanical standpoint, a light toggle turning itself off would be a very extreme oddity (based on my experience doing tech work for 35+ years). Much like the paranormal. Certainly a flickering could occur due to internal short, but the switch being moved? Incredibly unlikely.

It is only a steadfast lack of belief in the paranormal that could create a certainty that this was purely an odd coincidence.

This is no criticism, understand. It is an observation.

 

[xjx388]

Well, from a strictly mechanical standpoint, a light toggle turning itself off would be a very extreme oddity (based on my experience doing tech work for 35+ years). Much like the paranormal. Certainly a flickering could occur due to internal short, but the switch being moved? Incredibly unlikely.

It is only a steadfast lack of belief in the paranormal that could create a certainty that this was purely an odd coincidence.

This is no criticism, understand. It is an observation.

It could be many things other than the paranormal. See, a paranormal explanation requires a host of suppositions that there are no evidence for: the existence of a “soul,” the idea that this soul has the ability to direct itself after separating from the body, the idea that a soul has the ability to interact with matter, the idea that a soul would have a desire to communicate in some way…you get the picture.

More mundane explanations require no suppositions at all. Could have been as simple as a loose spring and a switch left slightly out of position.

We don’t need to consider explanations for which there is no evidence. Anecodotes about weird things happening are not evidence of the paranormal. Sometimes, given the late remove and the inability to test different theories, there may not be a satisfactory explanation other than “that was weird.” This is not an excuse to plug in a paranormal explanation.

This is the essence of Occam’s Razor.

 

[Apathia]

Well, from a strictly mechanical standpoint, a light toggle turning itself off would be a very extreme oddity (based on my experience doing tech work for 35+ years). Much like the paranormal. Certainly a flickering could occur due to internal short, but the switch being moved? Incredibly unlikely.

It is only a steadfast lack of belief in the paranormal that could create a certainty that this was purely an odd coincidence.

This is no criticism, understand. It is an observation.

A lack of belief, yes, but not an absolute certainty.
It's a high standard of empirical evidence for claims that haven't brought with them solid empirical evidence.

Science is a working methodology for actionable knowledge as opposed to superstition, folklore, anecdote, or beliefs having no foundation but religious authority.

Could it be that there are events outside Human empirical grasp?
I'd say yes, because so much has been that isn't no longer. But unless we have the equipment that expands our empirical grasp and makes these things observable in their regular behavior, they are outside actionable knowledge and too much of a hearsay to be relied upon.

Gravity waves were outside our empirical grasp, now we have equipment to detect them. We know how they regularly behave.
Have that for ghosts, shades, or whatever, then we'll have something to talk about and work with.

Prior to that there's a lot of human folklore, misidentification, misunderstanding, and storytelling that distracts from a rational approach to reality. A scientific approach means our provisional knowledge is open to investigation rather than being sealed by superstitious ignorance or dogmatic authority.

The current anti-science attitude of the far right is a preference for authority that belittles human inquiry and our capability to understand our world. It wants absolute certainty. It wants dogma. It wants the human mind silenced except to parrot what the religious authorities say.

I don't want to live in a country founded on religious supremacy, or popular superstition.

But back to why I started this thread. Anecdotal experiences you cannot explain, not only don't prove paranormal claims, they do not present actionable evidence.

If someone wants to live a certain way because they had a visionary encounter ("Met" Kobo Daishi Kukai while doing the 88 temples pilgrimage route or woke up one morning with a vivid recollection of being taken by space aliens who told them some wonderful things about the wisdom of the Ascended Masters), I'm not going to argue that they didn't have that experience. But it's not Proof, and I'll object if it becomes something they must push upon others as the "Truth."

And for the record, I object to any state that attempts to enforce atheism. Just as I object to any state sponsored religion. (Including my favorite: Buddhism.)

 

[Apathia]

It could be many things other than the paranormal. See, a paranormal explanation requires a host of suppositions that there are no evidence for: the existence of a “soul,” the idea that this soul has the ability to direct itself after separating from the body, the idea that a soul has the ability to interact with matter, the idea that a soul would have a desire to communicate in some way…you get the picture.

More mundane explanations require no suppositions at all. Could have been as simple as a loose spring and a switch left slightly out of position.

We don’t need to consider explanations for which there is no evidence. Anecodotes about weird things happening are not evidence of the paranormal. Sometimes, given the late remove and the inability to test different theories, there may not be a satisfactory explanation other than “that was weird.” This is not an excuse to plug in a paranormal explanation.

This is the essence of Occam’s Razor.

My point well stated.

 

[Warp12]

It could be many things other than the paranormal. See, a paranormal explanation requires a host of suppositions that there are no evidence for: the existence of a “soul,” the idea that this soul has the ability to direct itself after separating from the body, the idea that a soul has the ability to interact with matter, the idea that a soul would have a desire to communicate in some way…you get the picture.

More mundane explanations require no suppositions at all. Could have been as simple as a loose spring and a switch left slightly out of position.

We don’t need to consider explanations for which there is no evidence. Anecodotes about weird things happening are not evidence of the paranormal. Sometimes, given the late remove and the inability to test different theories, there may not be a satisfactory explanation other than “that was weird.” This is not an excuse to plug in a paranormal explanation.

This is the essence of Occam’s Razor.

Sure. That is one way to look at things. And in doing so it comfortably guarantees that only lab-verifiable, repeatable results can ever be attributed to the paranormal. Because of course, the paranormal should be entirely content to manifest itself on the terms of scientific method.

 

[arthwollipot]

Sure. That is one way to look at things. And in doing so it comfortably guarantees that only lab-verifiable, repeatable results can ever be attributed to the paranormal. Because of course, the paranormal should be entirely content to manifest itself on the terms of scientific method.

If it isn't subject to the scientific method, how can we say that it verifiably exists?

 

[Apathia]

Ah! The contentment of the paranormal.

Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself.
A monk approached and said, "Master, the essence of wind is permanent and there is no place where it is not. Why, then, do you fan yourself?"

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is transcendent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its being everywhere."

"What is the meaning of its being everywhere?" asked the monk again.

The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.