Differences in Sex Development (aka "intersex")

This thread isn't about trans issues, by design.
It's about "what fraction of people born with DSDs are really ambiguous between male and female?"

Which is impossible to answer without a scientifically and logically justifiable definition for male and female. Which you seem rather remarkably unwilling to address ...

But those definitions clearly have a great deal of relevance to "trans issues" which various comments here have underlined.

But I am also confused about the utility of two new terms for active gamete producers.
Hardly "new terms" - probably been around at least since Parker's 1972 article in the Journal of Theoretical Biology.

But probably "confused" because you refuse to read and think about Griffiths' Aeon article, and all the rest of the arguments I've put on the table.

Though those definitions - that have been around for at least 5 or 6 decades ... - have always been about "active gamete producers". It's only been sloppy thinking or motivated reasoning that has broadened - distorted - the terms to included the inactive or never-will-produce.
 
It's about "what fraction of people born with DSDs are really ambiguous between male and female?"
Not to mention DSDs more generally. Do you think gender dysphoria is one?



Which is impossible to answer without a scientifically and logically justifiable definition for male and female.
Agreed. Alas, you've not yet discovered a definition which allows us to make sense of key scientific phrases such as male developmental pathway.



But those definitions clearly have a great deal of relevance to "trans issues" which various comments here have underlined.
No comment at this time.

Hardly "new terms" - probably been around at least since Parker's 1972 article in the Journal of Theoretical Biology.
And yet you're the first to propose "pre-males" and "post females." Somehow everyone else missed the clear implications for five decades.

[emoji2957]

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I've read the paper, and you are completely misrepresenting what Del Giudice is saying. The idea that 'the patchwork definition of sex in the social sciences' is referring to 'Hilton, Wright, Heying etc' that you keep trumpeting is entirely your own concoction. It is very obvious from the previous paragraph that he is referring to the attempts by postmodern gender theorists to deconstruct sex by treating it as a cluster of characteristics, none of which is definitive:
'In the social sciences, many scholars define sex as a collection of traits—X/Y chromosomes, gonads, hormones, and genitals—that cluster together in most people but may also occur in rare atypical combinations (e.g., Blakemore et al., 2009; Fausto-Sterling, 2012; Helgeson, 2016; Joel, 2012). This definition is the basis for the widely repeated claim that up to 2% of live births are intersex (Blackless et al., 2000; see e.g., Hyde et al., 2019). In fact, the 2% figure is a gross overestimate. "


Yes, Del Guidice, unlike Steersman, is making the case that 99.98% of humans are either male or female. From my reading, the author endorses the functional pathway definitions. The bulk of the article is criticism of other people's definitions, but here is the entire section where he lays out the biological definition of the sexes:
The Real Sex Binary
In the social sciences, many scholars define sex as a collection of traits—X/Y
chromosomes, gonads, hormones, and genitals—that cluster together in most people but may
also occur in rare atypical combinations (e.g., Blakemore et al., 2009; Fausto-Sterling, 2012;
Helgeson, 2016; Joel, 2012). This definition is the basis for the widely repeated claim that up to
2% of live births are intersex (Blackless et al., 2000; see e.g., Hyde et al., 2019). In fact, the 2%
figure is a gross overestimate. Blackless et al. (2000) defined intersex very broadly as individuals
who deviate from the “Platonic ideal” of sex dimorphism; accordingly, they included several
conditions (e.g., Klinefelter syndrome, vaginal agenesis, congenital adrenal hyperplasia) that
affect sexual development but can be classified as “intersex” only in a very loose sense (Sax,
2002). If one restricts the term to conditions that involve a discordance between chromosomal
and phenotypic sex, or a phenotype that cannot be classified unambiguously as either male or
female, the frequency of intersex is almost certainly less than 0.02% (Sax, 2002; see also Hull,
2003).
On a deeper level, the “patchwork” definition of sex used in the social sciences is purely
descriptive and lacks a functional rationale. This contrasts sharply with how the sexes are
defined in biology. From a biological standpoint, what distinguishes the males and females of a
species is the size of their gametes: males produce small gametes (e.g., sperm), females produce
large gametes (e.g., eggs; Kodric-Brown & Brown, 1987).4 Dimorphism in gamete size or
anisogamy is the dominant pattern in multicellular organisms, including animals. The evolution
of two gamete types with different sizes and roles in fertilization is the predictable consequence
of selection to maximize the efficiency of fertilization (Lehtonen & Kokko, 2011; Lehtonen &
Parker, 2014). In turn, anisogamy set the stage for sexual selection (i.e., selection via mating
competition and mate choice), with predictable consequences for the evolution of sexually
differentiated traits in morphology, development, and behavior (Janicke et al., 2016; Lehtonen et
al., 2016; Schärer et al., 2012). Of course, the existence of two distinct sexes does not mean that
sex-related traits must also have binary, sharply bimodal distributions. The sex binary is
perfectly compatible with large amounts of within-sex variation in anatomy, physiology, and
behavior. In fact, sexual selection often amplifies individual variability in sex-related traits
(typically more strongly in males), and can favor the evolution of multiple alternative phenotypes
within each sex (see Del Giudice et al., 2018b; Taborsky & Brockmann, 2010).
To be clear, the biological definition of sex is not just one option among many equally
valid alternatives; the very existence of differentiated males and females in a species depends on
the existence of two gamete types. Chromosomes and hormones participate in the mechanics of
sex determination and sexual differentiation, but do not play the same foundational role. The sex binary, then, is not a fiction but a basic biological fact: even if a given individual may fail to produce viable gametes, there are only two gamete types with no meaningful intermediate forms (Lehtonen & Parker, 2014; see also Cretella et al., 2019). This dichotomy is not statistical but functional, and hence is not challenged by the existence of intersex conditions (regardless of
their frequency), nonbinary gender identities, and other seeming exceptions.
 
I'd love to be given an example of the 0.02% of human beings who are "neither male nor female". I'd also like to know what this person thinks of being referred to in these terms. The chances are that he or she is quite obviously prediminantly male or female.

While it's true that some people with DSDs self-identify as non-binary, just as a lot of people with perfectly norman genetics and phenotype of their sex identify as non-binary, that doesn't actually mean that they're neither male nor female.

I mean, maybe one day someone will come up with an actual example of someone who is genuinely unrecognisable as belonging to one sex category or the other, but it hasn't happened yet. (The last attempt concerned a report of a man who had both hypospadias and some vestigial ovarian tissue which was removed for health reasons. He was married and had fathered children, and was referred to throughout the report as a man, and "he".)
 
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I'd love to be given an example of the 0.02% of human beings who are "neither male nor female".
I think the example I gave at #500 should count, since they are genetically male but considered female at birth for perfectly understandable reasons.

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I think the example I gave at #500 should count, since they are genetically male but considered female at birth for perfectly understandable reasons.


What, CAIS? No. They're female. Try approaching someone with CAIS and telling her that she's not, and see where it gets you.
 
ETA: "Almost" every case? I'm still waiting for someone to point out an actual person who genuinely cannot be reasonably shown to be either predominantly male or predominantly female*. And then to tell me what he or she thinks about being held up as an example of a person who has no sex. I do not believe such a person actually exists.

The article mentioned 'conditions that involve a discordance between chromosomal and phenotypic sex, or a phenotype that cannot be classified unambiguously as either male or female' with a rate of less than .02% and I thought there were a couple of rare cases mentioned earlier in the thread of individuals who had both types of gonadal tissue. I don't have any opinion about whether absolutely every individual can be classified as male or female as it's not my field. I don't think a few rare cases of anomalous development that people might argue about threaten the concept of sex as binary in any case.
 
Yes, Del Guidice, unlike Steersman, is making the case that 99.98% of humans are either male or female. From my reading, the author endorses the functional pathway definitions. The bulk of the article is criticism of other people's definitions, but here is the entire section where he lays out the biological definition of the sexes:

Yes, and following that he discusses a lot of work on sex differences. Funnily enough, nearly all of that work involves comparing males and females without any consideration of whether or not the participants in these studies are currently producing viable gametes. Not once does he mention that all of this work is suspect because the categories being compared actually contain a mix of male and sexless or female and sexless participants.
 
The article mentioned 'conditions that involve a discordance between chromosomal and phenotypic sex, or a phenotype that cannot be classified unambiguously as either male or female' with a rate of less than .02% and I thought there were a couple of rare cases mentioned earlier in the thread of individuals who had both types of gonadal tissue. I don't have any opinion about whether absolutely every individual can be classified as male or female as it's not my field. I don't think a few rare cases of anomalous development that people might argue about threaten the concept of sex as binary in any case.


There are individuals who develop both types of gonadal tissue. In every case I have been made aware of, one sex was clearly dominant and the tissues of the other sex were anomalies, usually vestigial.

As regards "a discordance between chromosomal and phenotypic sex", that would depend on how you classify "chromosomal sex". If we're simply arguing about CAIS and Swyer's syndrome again, I think these women might have quite a lot to say about being labelled as "neither male nor female".
 
What, CAIS? No. They're female.
Females aren't generally born with testicles or 46, XY karyotype, so I'd say there is plenty of room for reasonable debate here. You yourself said you "did at one stage consider such individuals to be biologically male rather than neither, but males who should unquestionably be accepted by society as women and indeed female." I agree about accepting them as women (for all non-medical purposes) but probably not as females. Even under the broadest developmental pathway definition, people w/ CAIS generally aren't on that pathway.
 
Yes, I agree there is room for reasonable debate. However, I think the debate concerns which box to classify them in - the one that the strict interpretation of the genetics implies, or the one they actually belong to, as human beings. Not that they should be considered to be neither. Females aren't "generally" born with (or without) several different properties we normally regard as being part of being female, but when they are, we still accept them as female. Why would this one be a particular sticking point?

Having thought more about the functionality of the SRY gene question, I come down more and more on the side of female. In addition, what they're born with are not testicles in the normal sense of the word, but "streak gonads". Or so I understand it. If you met someone with CAIS you would immediately recognise her as a woman, as female. Not as male, and not as neither.
 
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I have moved a load of uncivil posts to AAH and, unfortunately some perfectly cromulent replies to them because I will not bother to edit all the incivility out of Steersman's posts (Yes Steersman - this is a warning to you in particular to tone down your incivility) just so Steersman can participate in a conversation.

If you feel that you would like some of your posts restored to the thread, report them from AAH, and we'll see about editing out the moderated content in the replies.

I have also set my threshold for incivility at a low level in a (probably futile) attempt to tidy up this thread and get it back on topic which is "Differences in Sex Development (aka "intersex")" and not Trans issues.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jimbob
 
If you met someone with CAIS you would immediately recognise her as a woman, as female. Not as male, and not as neither.
I do know someone with CAIS, and she is recognizably female in every way that matters, aside from the possibility of motherhood. That said, she is not part of the abovementioned 99.98% since she has one of the "conditions that involve a discordance between chromosomal and phenotypic sex" and perhaps also "a phenotype that cannot be classified unambiguously as either male or female" (e.g. streak gonads instead of ovaries).

Try approaching someone with CAIS and telling her that she's not, and see where it gets you.
Try approaching Boudicca90 and telling her she's not female, see where that gets you. ;)
 
I'm challenging that definition, not quibbling about who does or doesn't fit by the definition. Do they include Swyer's syndrome there too? I mean, what is "chromosomal sex" in that context? It's not clear.

Telling Boudicca90 that he's not female would get me suspended, that's what. But as you readily agree, trans issues and DSD issues are entirely separate.
 
But as you readily agree, trans issues and DSD issues are entirely separate.
They are indeed separate, but in both cases I'd advise against deferring to any given individual's feelings about which labels should (not) apply.

Do they include Swyer's syndrome there too?
Dunno yet, I'll try to find out.

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They are indeed separate, but in both cases I'd advise against deferring to any given individual's feelings about which labels should (not) apply.


Nope. Not in the case of a phenotypically and genotypically normal man who wants to invade and occupy women's intimate spaces for kicks.
 
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Dunno yet, I'll try to find out.


The thing is, unless "chromosomal sex" is very tightly defined, the entire thing is meaningless. Swyer's syndrome (and XX males) demonstrates that it's not about having a Y chromosome as such, but about having (or not having) a functional SRY gene. At that point it's not so much "chromosomal sex" as "genetic sex".

All you have to do then is to realise that "functional SRY gene" really has to include the associated hormone receptors, enzyme systems and so on that allow a foetus to become male. Otherwise freemartin heifers are male by that definition, because their white blood cells and bone marrow contain cells with perfectly normal SRY genes.
 
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They are indeed separate, but in both cases I'd advise against deferring to any given individual's feelings about which labels should (not) apply.

Bravo! A principle well-worth championing!

Though you might consider applying that same principle to those - like the intersex, the prepubescent and a few of the other usual suspects - who get "offended" at even the prospect of being deprived of their membership cards in the sex categories. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander and all that ... ;)
 
Though you might consider applying that same principle to those - like the intersex, the prepubescent and a few of the other usual suspects - who get "offended" at even the prospect of being deprived of their membership cards in the sex categories.
Once I've wrapped my head around the social utility in relabeling prepubesecent children from the two current (sexed) categories into a new single category of "sexless," then maybe I'll take this under advisement.

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The thing is, unless "chromosomal sex" is very tightly defined, the entire thing is meaningless. ....
"The thing is" that you have yet to define "male" and "female" - and "sex" itself - with any coherence, logical consistency, or biological currency so I'm not quite sure how you can argue that "... 'chromosomal sex' is very tightly defined".

You may wish to read a fairly decent article - "Decoupled from Reality" (indeed) - by Amanda MacLean over at Weekly Worker:

Genderist ideology is based on flawed science and worse logic, argues Amanda MacLean
https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1247/decoupled-from-reality/

A pretty solid if somewhat flawed takedown of Ainsworth's Nature article, but a more relevant quote for those unwilling to follow links ...

Reductionist disciplines that look at different parts of organisms - such as genes, tissues, physiology or neurobiology - use the words ‘male’ and ‘female’ as shorthand for ‘of males/females’ or ‘typical of males/females’. We identify traits like chromosomes or hormone profiles as typical of male or female by first dividing the population into male or female categories on the basis of other characteristics. Having made that distinction, we can then compare the two groups and ask questions about how and why they differ. Thus, the reason we call the XX chromosome combination ‘female’ and XY ‘male’ is because each genotype usually plays an important role in determining the development of male or female anatomy, and thus is very closely associated with those sexes. But the reason we can say this is that we first divided the population into males and females, using other criteria, before checking what chromosomes they had.

As she suggests, you have to FIRST define what you mean by "male" and "female" BEFORE you start talking about which "traits like chromosomes or hormone profiles" are typical of which sex.

You're probably more the pro-from-Dover on which chromosomes are more commonly found in which sex than I am - and I'll cheerfully defer to your superior knowledge in that case. But it seems it's unreasonable to infer "because chromosome set PQRS therefore male or female". Clearly, even if one set is more typical of one sex than another that does not preclude its occurrence in those who exhibit OTHER features that are more typical of the OTHER sex.

Methinks you're putting the cart before the horse. Probably a consequence of a "desperate insistence that everyone - of every sexually-reproducing species has to be of one sex or the other" ... ;)
 

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