Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Vixen]

Right. I think your pronouncements qualify as argument from inexperience then.

At least I took the trouble to study gender politics / sociology / literature (for leisure) at Birkbeck College so at least I am aware that what you see around you are social constructs and not the 'natural order of things', which is the everyman view.

 

[theprestige]

Not to get all "vehement" in agreeing with one part of your comment and then wind up in "vehement disagreement" with the rest of it ... , but while I quite agree with "objective qualities", the issue is "which ones?"

One might say that transwomen have, for example, hearts and lungs and 10 fingers and 10 toes in common with women (i.e., adult human females [sex]). But, of course, that doesn't address the problem - which is basically that transwomen have penises - or have had them removed - and have, in most cases, an XY karyotype while women don't.

That's the crux of the matter - what we CALL those individuals is almost entirely irrelevant to the rights that society - wisely or not - decides to grant to one group that it denies to the other. Squabbling over the names we attach to those groups just muddies the waters and precludes dealing with the question of whether those rights are justified or not.

You might be interested in an oldish essay at Quillette on the topic; a salient and relevant quote or two:



https://archive.ph/4e2n0

Okay, so stop squabbling over names, already. The rest of of us have.

 

[lionking]

They get targetted by the lesbian prisoners anyway. Since when did prisoners have any say in what happens to them anyway. Have female prisoners ever been consulted, when separated from their kids, made to go into labour chained to the bed, eat tasteless food, get banged up in their dingy cells: it is news to me that female prisoners have their opinions sought.

What?

It's clear you haven't been following this thread at all. Self identified transwomen have been demanding to be placed in women's prisons and have been having their requests granted.

 

[d4m10n]

They get targetted by the lesbian prisoners anyway.

This has got to be the most callous possible response to a question about inmate safeguarding.

Since when did prisoners have any say in what happens to them anyway.

I stand corrected.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes, surgery to change sex is extreme and vastly different from someone who is merely, say, a cross dresser. However, such individual do exist who 'know' from an early age they are 'in the wrong body', so they'll change their name, wear different clothes and even go so far as the surgeon's knife. I don't know why this is so abhorrent to people that there are some who have a desperate need to identify as a different gender.

What strikes me as odd about this response is that the primary concern isn't about transwomen who have undergone sex change surgery, but about transwomen who don't.

 

[d4m10n]

The studies that are mostly more recent than this research and which do control for sexual orientation have found, fairly consistently I believe, that the 'sex-atypical differentiation of the brain' is accounted for by sexual orientation and only the 'body perception and self-referential processing' networks distinguish those with gender dysphoria.

What would it mean—for public policy or for your own take on trans issues—if neuroscientists someday discovered a hypothetical brain structure which is basically the same in cisgender women and transgender women, but hardly anyone else?

(I really don't expect this will happen, given what we've seen so far.)

 

[theprestige]

My question to you is is who are we really? Once you strip away one's name, inculcation from an early age via school, workplace and socialising of how one should act, male versus female.

You can't strip away male versus female. It's baked into our DNA, and into the bodies that emerge according to the instructions in that DNA.

But I'll answer your question once you answer mine: What objective qualities do transwomen have in common with women, that they don't also have in common with men?

 

[Rolfe]

Assuming that EVERY SINGLE MAN who adopts a feminine persona is a lovely person who will never even embarrass a woman by his presence in sex-restricted intimate spaces, let alone perform fetishistic behaviour or pose an actual threat is quite a stretch.

 

[Ziggurat]

What would it mean—for public policy or for your own take on trans issues—if neuroscientists someday discovered a hypothetical brain structure which is basically the same in cisgender women and transgender women, but hardly anyone else?

(I really don't expect this will happen, given what we've seen so far.)

From a public policy perspective, I think that would be the nail in the coffin of self ID.

 

[theprestige]

What would it mean—for public policy or for your own take on trans issues—if neuroscientists someday discovered a hypothetical brain structure which is basically the same in cisgender women and transgender women, but hardly anyone else?

In a liberal democracy, public policy is ultimately down to what the citizenry want.

For my own take:

It still wouldn't make transwomen female. Therefore it would be irrelevant to all policy questions about sex-segregated spaces.

It still wouldn't mean transwomen feel like women, or know what it feels like to be a woman.

It would still end up being an inconsequential quirk of personality, like a kink or fetish; or else an actual medical issue to be diagnosed and treated humanely and ethically. Just like BIID, paranoid schizophrenia, and pedophilia.

 

[Vixen]

You can't strip away male versus female. It's baked into our DNA, and into the bodies that emerge according to the instructions in that DNA.

But I'll answer your question once you answer mine: What objective qualities do transwomen have in common with women, that they don't also have in common with men?

They identify as culturally female rather than as male. Just because you have never had any doubts about yourself, you can't just ride roughshod over those who do. A lot of female/male identity is to do with social conditioning and conformity rather than nature. Of course, nature is strong but not all men are aggressive and predatory and not all women are simpering wilting wallflowers.

I understand that this is arguable but what I don't understand is why people are so upset about the presence of a transgender person.

 

[Vixen]

Assuming that EVERY SINGLE MAN who adopts a feminine persona is a lovely person who will never even embarrass a woman by his presence in sex-restricted intimate spaces, let alone perform fetishistic behaviour or pose an actual threat is quite a stretch.

IMV the average woman is more likely to be embarrassed by a typical man than any transgender character. The former are roughly 50% of the population, the later...? How likely is a transgender man likely to be found in the Ladies toilets and why should it be a problem.

 

[Steersman]

Of course 'biology is destiny' to a certain extent but women only produce ova for a short period (all present from birth) gradually becoming more and more infertile. With the advent of the pill, ova not even needed to be a woman.

Methinks you should have taken some biology at college instead of "gender studies". Or learn how to use Wikipedia; for example, see the article on oogenesis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oogenesis#Maturation_into_ovum

But of particular note:

"Oogenesis starts with the process of developing primary oocytes, which occurs via the transformation of oogonia into primary oocytes, a process called oocytogenesis. .... Both polar bodies disintegrate at the end of Meiosis II, leaving only the ootid, which then eventually undergoes maturation into a mature ovum."

Girls are born with 1-2 million of those "primary oocytes", but only some 500 mature into actual ova that can actually be used in reproduction. A woman only PRODUCES (present tense indefinite) some 500 ova from puberty to menopause.

Baby and prepubescent girls can not yet make available for reproduction mature ova so don't qualify as females - they can not do so until the onset of puberty. And "menopausees" no longer have the ability to turn those "ootids" into mature ova that can be used in reproduction so they no longer qualify as females either.

But relative to "gender studies", I wonder if you ever read Professing Feminism by Noretta Koertge and Daphne Patai. Can't say that I have myself - on the list - but a decent and illuminating, if damning review here:

https://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2009/07/27/professing-feminism-noh/

A salient quote:

The authors, however, demonstrate that these problems have existed since their ideology’s inception, and were particularly common within Women Studies programs. The authors wrote of the isolationist attitude that dominates many of the programs, along with a virulent anti-science, anti-intellectual sentiment driving many of the professors, staff and students.

Great deal of ideological bias and outright rot through much of feminism which bears some responsibility for the whole transgender ***********.

Yes, surgery to change sex is extreme and vastly different from someone who is merely, say, a cross dresser. However, such individual do exist who 'know' from an early age they are 'in the wrong body', so they'll change their name, wear different clothes and even go so far as the surgeon's knife. I don't know why this is so abhorrent to people that there are some who have a desperate need to identify as a different gender.

Nobody, no human, changes their sex. Unless you want to stand on one's "sex" as polite euphemisms for one's genitalia:

https://www.lexico.com/definition/sex

But not particularly "abhorrent" to me - just won't be any party to an egregious, and seriously problematic lie, particularly when it leads to the butchery of autistic and defenseless children:

https://www.solzhenitsyncenter.org/live-not-by-lies

At least any sort of a claim that is manifestly inconsistent with, and contradicted by standard biological definitions by which to have a sex, to be male or female is to have functioning gonads of either of two types.

When you refer to 'sexless eunuchs' and 'a high price to dish with the girls about the latest nail polishes' it sounds like you have the classic male fear - no doubt inculcated into you from an early age - of being thought a girl.

As if a transgender undergoes life-changing surgery just so that they can gossip about nail polish 'with the girls'.

Really!

LoL - as the kids on Tik-Tok say ...

[Jenner] looks forward to re-creating the atmosphere of “girls’ night” on a more regular basis, “where everybody is treating you the same way. You can talk about anything you want to talk about. You can talk about outfits. You can talk about hair and makeup, anything you want. It becomes not a big deal.”

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited for rule 10. In the public sections of the forum you must not evade the autocensor. Type out swear words in full, correctly spelled, and with no replacement or missing characters. If the word is not permitted in the public sections, the autocensor will remove it.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

They identify as culturally female rather than as male. Just because you have never had any doubts about yourself, you can't just ride roughshod over those who do. A lot of female/male identity is to do with social conditioning and conformity rather than nature. Of course, nature is strong but not all men are aggressive and predatory and not all women are simpering wilting wallflowers.

I understand that this is arguable but what I don't understand is why people are so upset about the presence of a transgender person.

Do you actually read anyone else's posts, or do you just go off on context-free rants?

Almost no one cares about how people view themselves as far as gender goes, and indeed think that their rights should be protected as far as speech, employment, and otherwise.

The main concern with most here is the changes in public policy that many TRAs want in regards to self-ID. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON INDIVIDUAL TRANSGENDER PEOPLE. It is a concern for the situation of women affected by an unconditional surrender to whatever TRAs demand.

 

[theprestige]

They identify as culturally female rather than as male. Just because you have never had any doubts about yourself, you can't just ride roughshod over those who do. A lot of female/male identity is to do with social conditioning and conformity rather than nature. Of course, nature is strong but not all men are aggressive and predatory and not all women are simpering wilting wallflowers.

I understand that this is arguable but what I don't understand is why people are so upset about the presence of a transgender person.

The issue isn't about the presence of a transgender person. The issue is about the presence of a male in sex-segregated spaces for females.

 

[Vixen]

Methinks you should have taken some biology at college instead of "gender studies". Or learn how to use Wikipedia; for example, see the article on oogenesis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oogenesis#Maturation_into_ovum

But of particular note:



Girls are born with 1-2 million of those "primary oocytes", but only some 500 mature into actual ova that can actually be used in reproduction. A woman only PRODUCES (present tense indefinite) some 500 ova from puberty to menopause.

Baby and prepubescent girls can not yet make available for reproduction mature ova so don't qualify as females - they can not do so until the onset of puberty. And "menopausees" no longer have the ability to turn those "ootids" into mature ova that can be used in reproduction so they no longer qualify as females either.

But relative to "gender studies", I wonder if you ever read Professing Feminism by Noretta Koertge and Daphne Patai. Can't say that I have myself - on the list - but a decent and illuminating, if damning review here:

https://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2009/07/27/professing-feminism-noh/

A salient quote:



Great deal of ideological bias and outright rot through much of feminism which bears some responsibility for the whole transgender ***********.



Nobody, no human, changes their sex. Unless you want to stand on one's "sex" as polite euphemisms for one's genitalia:

https://www.lexico.com/definition/sex

But not particularly "abhorrent" to me - just won't be any party to an egregious, and seriously problematic lie, particularly when it leads to the butchery of autistic and defenseless children:

https://www.solzhenitsyncenter.org/live-not-by-lies

At least any sort of a claim that is manifestly inconsistent with, and contradicted by standard biological definitions by which to have a sex, to be male or female is to have functioning gonads of either of two types.


LoL - as the kids on Tik-Tok say ...



https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz

I am not actually a feminist. However, I do think people like Angela Carter, Virginia Woolf and the French circle of radical academic feminists are well worth delving into. Because personal is political.

I fully accept that teenagers should not be allowed to change sex until they are mature enough to fully understand what they are doing and to give them a chance to change their mind. However, there are many who have been absolutely convinced from a very young age that they are in the wromng body and have no regrets at all.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited rule 10 breach in quote

 

[Vixen]

Do you actually read anyone else's posts, or do you just go off on context-free rants?

Almost no one cares about how people view themselves as far as gender goes, and indeed think that their rights should be protected as far as speech, employment, and otherwise.

The main concern with most here is the changes in public policy that many TRAs want in regards to self-ID. THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON INDIVIDUAL TRANSGENDER PEOPLE. It is a concern for the situation of women affected by an unconditional surrender to whatever TRAs demand.

Sure, there are those who want to undermine so-called 'western values' (perhaps spies for a foreign power or people with a political agenda to bring about social change). On the other hand there are transgender individuals who in good faith have identified as the opposite sex and of course once having been medically certified as fulfilling the psychological and hormonal criteria, ought to have exactly the same rights as anyone else.

I can see that there are some who would want to browbeat everyone into 'free love' or whatever but that shouldn't mean transgender individuals should not be able to live their lives in their new identity.

 

[Ziggurat]

Sure, there are those who want to undermine so-called 'western values' (perhaps spies for a foreign power or people with a political agenda to bring about social change). On the other hand there are transgender individuals who in good faith have identified as the opposite sex and of course once having been medically certified as fulfilling the psychological and hormonal criteria, ought to have exactly the same rights as anyone else.

As long as there's any form of sex segregation, nobody has the same rights as ANYONE else. And trans activists are not fighting to remove all sex segregation. The question is, who should a trans person have the same rights as, and why? Should a transwoman or a transman have the same rights as a woman? The same rights as a man? Something in between? Framing it as treating them "the same" is wrong, because if you treat someone the same as women in a sex segregated setting, then you aren't treating them the same as men, and vice versa. So whether or not to treat them "the same" isn't the actual question. The actual question is simply, how should they be treated?

And while that's a simpler question, there aren't any simple answers. Furthermore, the category of "transwoman" and "transman" are not uniform. A transwoman who dresses in women's clothing but isn't doing any medical treatment is different than a transwoman who is undergoing hormone treatment, which is different than a transwoman that has undergone full sex reassignment surgery. Depending on the circumstances, they should probably not all be treated the same as each other.

I can see that there are some who would want to browbeat everyone into 'free love' or whatever but that shouldn't mean transgender individuals should not be able to live their lives in their new identity.

This is still too vague to be useful. If you're a man and you throw on a dress, does that mean you get to walk into women's changing rooms? Is not being allowed to do so preventing them from living their lives in their "new identity"?

Nobody here wants trans people to be harrassed or persecuted. Everyone here would ideally like for people to be able to comfortably express who they feel themselves to be. But there are different interests here which are in genuine conflict. Women don't want to see penises in their locker rooms. Some people with penises want to be in women's locker rooms. That's a conflict that talking about rights won't solve.

 

[Steersman]

I am not actually a feminist.

Well, that's something of a mark in your favour ...

However, I do think people like Angela Carter, Virginia Woolf and the French circle of radical academic feminists are well worth delving into. Because personal is political.

More than a bit of merit and justification in many perspectives and principles of feminism. The problem is that its riven with no end of ideological bias and outright anti-scientific claptrap. You may wish to read an essay by Marco Del Giudice of the University of New Mexico on that point:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ical_Bias_in_the_Psychology_of_Sex_and_Gender

This passage, in particular:

"On a deeper level, the ‘patchwork’ definition of sex used in the social sciences is purely descriptive and lacks a functional rationale. This contrasts sharply with how the sexes are defined in biology. From a biological standpoint, what distinguishes the males and females of a species is the size of their gametes: males produce [present tense indefinite] small gametes (e.g., sperm), females produce [present tense indefinite] large gametes (e.g., eggs; Kodric-Brown & Brown, 1987)"

Most here are just as dogmatically committed to that "patchwork" "definition" as transactivists are committed to their "trans women are women" mantra. And with as little reason, and with as many problems.

I fully accept that teenagers should not be allowed to change sex until they are mature enough to fully understand what they are doing and to give them a chance to change their mind. However, there are many who have been absolutely convinced from a very young age that they are in the wrong body and have no regrets at all.

Repeating "2+2=5", even until the cows come home doesn't make it any less false the last time than at the first.

You seem rather desperately committed to the "idea", to the transgender article of faith that people can actually change sex.

 

[smartcooky]

They identify as culturally female rather than as male.

Who gives a flying **** about culture? What matters here are physical facts... males are born with a cock and women are born with a ****. Nothing can change that.... ever!

Just because you have never had any doubts about yourself, you can't just ride roughshod over those who do. A lot of female/male identity is to do with social conditioning and conformity rather than nature. Of course, nature is strong but not all men are aggressive and predatory and not all women are simpering wilting wallflowers.

I don't care if only one in a 100, or only one in a 1,000 or only one in 10,000 or only one in a 100,000 or only one in a million transgender women are predators looking to prey on vulnerable women, it is still not a reason for some policy makers to override the wishes of the vast majority of women to allow anatomical males to use women's segregated safe spaces.

I understand that this is arguable but what I don't understand is why people are so upset about the presence of a transgender person.

Males do not belong in female ablutions and changing rooms. Why are you so hell bent on allowing it?

NOTE: I would not want either of my daughters to encounter anyone like one of the freaks I showed you in post#1813, in a women's public toilet.