Forward Party

[wareyin]

And if they were half so demanding of the representatives within their party who actively work against them they wouldn't have as much criticism to object to. The Emperor has no clothes but it's the kid's fault for being so impolite as to point it out.

If you think Dems haven't been critical of Manchin, you have your head in the sand.

If you think Manchin cares what Dems outside of WV want or think, you have your head in the sand.

 

[wareyin]

It didn't need torture to make it worthless. It was an invalid non-analogous non-analogy from the start.

For one thing, in sports, there's no role within the system for talking about each other (or each other's performance) to play,

Nonsense. Players talk to each other, about each other, and their performances all the time. We know it happens in the locker rooms, and it happens in public interviews as well.

But here's the thing:you and I aren't the players, here. We're the fans. And I keep hearing claims about how you all support one team followed by nothing but attacks on the team that you claim to support. When some guy wearing a Cowboys hat walks into a Steelers Bar and just hates on the team, any claims he makes that no, really, he's a Steelers fan are going to be just as believable as the "vote blue no matter who" claims made by those who can't stop telling people how bad blue is.

but in politics, talking about each other and each other's policies is exactly how the whole thing's supposed to work; it's the whole point. A better analogy for that in basketball would be not players talking but players shooting, passing, blocking, and dribbling.

Also, the way the analogy was given here reverses the positions of the people doing the talking. In real life in the DP, all of the internal attackery is not perpetrated by the few good players and aimed at the majority bad players to tell them to do better. It's coming from the majority bad players and aimed at the few good ones to tell them to do worse. Part of the attack method just happens to also include false accusations that it's going in the opposite direction. Thus, the whole idea of "the only team that can beat the other team" is obvious nonsense because the ones doing the internal attacks on their own team aren't doing anything to beat the other team; they keep throwing the games and then blaming the good players for the sin of actually wanting to win.

Yeah, this thread is full of people saying how bad progressives are, rather than the other way around, isn't it?

(One thing about this analogy that is good is that it brings up the subject of why one team keeps throwing games: because there's an outside person or group of people, not on either team, who pays them to do so.)

Oooh, ooh, tell me this outside group is the Lizardpeople overlords!

 

[Beelzebuddy]

When something is this obvious, demands for a demonstration aren't being made in good faith.

Don't say something is demonstrable if you can't demonstrate it.

Wait, you seriously want to assert that, all evidence to the contrary, Manchin speaks for "possibly" most Democrats? Frankly, that's ludicrous and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of political realities.

Of course you want to ignore the actual way people voted, and pretend that they totally would have voted opposite of what they actually did, all the while blaming everyone else for failing to get Manchin on board rather than blaming Manchin for holding out. Don't blame Manchin or the GOP for being intransigent, blame the Dems for...not having the votes to overcome that intransigence. Because people like you have been shouting to the rooftops about how bad the Dems are so the "meh" voters either stay home, throw away their votes on a third party, or actually vote the GOP in.

People like you have been blaming Manchin from one side of their mouth and defending him with the other. Is he a Dem or not? Do his actions reflect on his party or not? If he personally is to blame, what explains the complete lack of action from Dem leadership to bring him into line? If he is representative of Dems, as "the best we can do from WV I guess," why shouldn't his actions be considered equally representative?

And yet, here in reality, that number was actually zero. But don't let that stop you.

The number of passed bills protecting the rights of women, yes. Zero.

Look, I myself claim to vote blue no matter who (in the privacy of the voting booth that can't be demonstrated), but how dare you criticise me for spending all my time and energy telling everyone else to not vote blue because they're so corrupt and so what that they all voted yes on abortion rights except Manchin, I'm imagining that they secretly wanted to vote no because they're all so awful!

You're going to need to find a quote where I tell people not to vote Democrat. I'm saying the party hasn't been earning their votes, and as we saw with the rust belt there's only so long you can coast on "slightly better than the alternative" before those votes disappear.

I'm holding out hope for a blue wave in November because the alternative has proven to be much worse than anticipated for most people, but if we get one, those people are going to want action. They're going to want justice. They're going to want protected abortion rights. They're going to want a balanced SCOTUS. If Dems are still in power next year, they're going to need to deliver on those. If all you've got in two years is all you've had here, BS about how one person is to blame and really you're the problem because how dare you accuse Dems of not being able to accomplish anything just because they can't accomplish anything don't you see you're being divisive, those voters will not show up again. They won't need anyone to tell them voting was a waste of their time.

 

[Suddenly]

No, Dems don't want your soul, and they obviously don't have and aren't going to get your undying allegiance. It's more of a polite request to stop spending so much time helping the side that you yourself say helping is basically treason against humanity.

How much time am I permitted to spend? Is there a schedule? Do I submit a request to the party?

Do I get credit for any outside work, or do we assume that this forum is what matters and is my whole life.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again why is nobody asking themselves why the Right doesn't have this problem?

And sure you can just shrug and spout off a truism about how it's because they are stupid and can't think for themselves and don't have any morals and all of that is 100% true but where does that get us exactly?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Again why is nobody asking themselves why the Right doesn't have this problem?

Kompromat. The whole damn thing is a suicide pact, from top to bottom. One bigass RICO case that's too big to charge because you'd literally have to arrest half of Congress.

 

[Suddenly]

But here's the thing:you and I aren't the players, here. We're the fans.

If anything, we are the players and they are the ownership. Except we can't retire or quit.

The idea of politics as a spectator sport has caused untold damage and is the dynamic causing Trump in the first place. Horse race journalism that skipped over the fact that Trump was a lying fascist and went straight to whether being a lying fascist would affect his political prospects.

These decisions affect real people. If it was just a matter of fandom and none of this directly affected me I'd never vote for the Democrats for the same reason I ignore the Pirates. I'm not in the business of encouraging incompetents who are taking my support for granted and leveraging same for personal gain.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Kompromat. The whole damn thing is a suicide pact, from top to bottom. One bigass RICO case that's too big to charge because you'd literally have to arrest half of Congress.

Okay, again, where does that live us?

We're basically back to arguing idealism/reality yet again.

If our morals and qualities and standards aren't actually accomplishing anything what's the bloody point?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Okay, again, where does that live us?

We're basically back to arguing idealism/reality yet again.

If our morals and qualities and standards aren't actually accomplishing anything what's the bloody point?

Gives us a goal, at least. What broke the mob was a crackdown on judiciary corruption and the courage to prosecute. The tools to address the issue were there, as they are today. What was lacking was the will to use them to their fullest. Idealism won out over pragmatism. We need to become willing to arrest half of congress in the pursuit of justice, if that's where it leads. Or even anyone in power at all, Mister Attorney General. Otherwise you're right, what good does it do us to hold the knowledge but lack conviction?

 

[JoeMorgue]

And we're back to a point I've been making for years.

Basically the American dream right now is a Democratic (Centrist or Progressive literally nobody outside of political fanboys cares) who isn't a pussy.

That's the one thing that Trump always understood on some level, somewhere in that tiny, malformed third testicle he called a brain that America was ripe, literally begging, for a leader who acted like not only they were right, but that it as so obviously that if you disagreed you weren't worth talking to.

Again so nobody has to @ me about something I didn't say yes absolutely every functional way Trump put that into practice was new levels of horrible, but that's the spark he had that go him where it did.

 

[wareyin]

Don't say something is demonstrable if you can't demonstrate it.

Ok, fine, I'll play your stupid game. Democrats as a party don't want to lose because they all, individually, campaign to actually win office. And once in office, 99% of them work together to win.

I can demonstrate that water is wet for you, next, if you need that as well.

People like you have been blaming Manchin from one side of their mouth and defending him with the other. Is he a Dem or not? Do his actions reflect on his party or not? If he personally is to blame, what explains the complete lack of action from Dem leadership to bring him into line? If he is representative of Dems, as "the best we can do from WV I guess," why shouldn't his actions be considered equally representative?

See, this is the whole bit where you demonstrate complete ignorance of the political realities. Saying that Manchin is a Dem is not "defending him". Saying that when 99% of the party votes one way, but Manchin votes the other, Manchin's actions reflect the party is demonstrably wrong. (Yes, the fact that Manchin's actions are against the rest of the party demonstrates that his actions don't represent the party for those who need it proven that water is wet again).

And we see again and again these claims that "Dem leadership" should "bring him into line", but each and every time the person making that demand hasn't got the foggiest idea how that should be done.

The number of passed bills protecting the rights of women, yes. Zero.

No, the number of Democratic Senators who voted the way you imagine they all wanted to.

You're going to need to find a quote where I tell people not to vote Democrat. I'm saying the party hasn't been earning their votes, and as we saw with the rust belt there's only so long you can coast on "slightly better than the alternative" before those votes disappear.

You certainly make it easy to find a quote of you saying what you went on to say in the very next sentence in that paragraph!

I'm holding out hope for a blue wave in November because the alternative has proven to be much worse than anticipated for most people, but if we get one, those people are going to want action. They're going to want justice. They're going to want protected abortion rights. They're going to want a balanced SCOTUS. If Dems are still in power next year, they're going to need to deliver on those. If all you've got in two years is all you've had here, BS about how one person is to blame and really you're the problem because how dare you accuse Dems of not being able to accomplish anything just because they can't accomplish anything don't you see you're being divisive, those voters will not show up again. They won't need anyone to tell them voting was a waste of their time.

That's nice. How, exactly, are Dems to balance the SCOTUS if they don't have two thirds of both houses of Congress? Oh, right, they can't. But that won't stop the people who are trying to convince everyone to vote GOP (or simply allow the GOP to win by not voting against them) from claiming it proves the Dems didn't want to do it.

 

[wareyin]

How much time am I permitted to spend? Is there a schedule? Do I submit a request to the party?

Do I get credit for any outside work, or do we assume that this forum is what matters and is my whole life.

Oh, spend all the time you like. Just don't act like we're all stupid and can't see what you're choosing to spend your time and effort telling people.

 

[wareyin]

If anything, we are the players and they are the ownership. Except we can't retire or quit.

The idea of politics as a spectator sport has caused untold damage and is the dynamic causing Trump in the first place. Horse race journalism that skipped over the fact that Trump was a lying fascist and went straight to whether being a lying fascist would affect his political prospects.

These decisions affect real people. If it was just a matter of fandom and none of this directly affected me I'd never vote for the Democrats for the same reason I ignore the Pirates. I'm not in the business of encouraging incompetents who are taking my support for granted and leveraging same for personal gain.

These decisions definitely affect real people. You, individually, are not in a position to make these decisions. You have to pick the person who is going to have the positions closest to yours. And when you do nothing but attack that person because they only want 99% of what you want, then you're working to promote the person who wants 0% of what you want. Because each of us influences those around us, and if your influence is "blues haven't earned my vote" then you've taken some number of votes away from blue and made red more likely to win.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This is so much why we need ranked choice voting, it cuts the argument out of all of this.

 

[Suddenly]

These decisions definitely affect real people. You, individually, are not in a position to make these decisions. You have to pick the person who is going to have the positions closest to yours. And when you do nothing but attack that person because they only want 99% of what you want, then you're working to promote the person who wants 0% of what you want. Because each of us influences those around us, and if your influence is "blues haven't earned my vote" then you've taken some number of votes away from blue and made red more likely to win.

Where has this policy of ruthless triangulation gotten the Democratic Party? An existential battle with Donald Trump. No universal healthcare, a badly fraying safety net, disappearing civil rights, and a court crisis they seem determined to underestimate and ignore.

Good job? The idea that criticizing them is bad because it will make it harder for them to keep up their stellar record of guiding us into the abyss is the Democratic Party strategy in a nutshell.

 

[Suddenly]

And we see again and again these claims that "Dem leadership" should "bring him into line", but each and every time the person making that demand hasn't got the foggiest idea how that should be done.
.

Asking for my vote, failing, and then telling me not to whine because I couldn't do any better is not exactly a sign of leadership.

"The buck stops with you unless you tell me how to do my job"

 

[wareyin]

Where has this policy of ruthless triangulation gotten the Democratic Party? An existential battle with Donald Trump. No universal healthcare, a badly fraying safety net, disappearing civil rights, and a court crisis they seem determined to underestimate and ignore.

Good job? The idea that criticizing them is bad because it will make it harder for them to keep up their stellar record of guiding us into the abyss is the Democratic Party strategy in a nutshell.

Ok, fine, continue in your strident efforts to get the Republican Party into permanent power. I'm sure that will get you universal healthcare, an improved safety net, restored civil rights, and a unified court.

Oh, wait, the Reps that you're assisting are the whole reason we don't have universal healthcare, and are the party working to erode the safety net, destroy our civil rights, and the Reps are the reason we have a Conservative majority on the SC.

So, hey, you're backing the winners here! Too bad you, like most Rep voters, are working against your own self interest as long as you can stick it to those people who only work for 99% of the stuff you want.

 

[wareyin]

Asking for my vote, failing, and then telling me not to whine because I couldn't do any better is not exactly a sign of leadership.

"The buck stops with you unless you tell me how to do my job"

'You should get Manchin in line!'

'Ok, how?'

'I don't know, it's not my job to wave a magic wand, it's yours!'

'We don't have a magic wand.'

'That's it, you haven't earned my vote! I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue, that'll teach you!'

 

[Suddenly]

Ok, fine, continue in your strident efforts to get the Republican Party into permanent power. I'm sure that will get you universal healthcare, an improved safety net, restored civil rights, and a unified court.

Oh, wait, the Reps that you're assisting are the whole reason we don't have universal healthcare, and are the party working to erode the safety net, destroy our civil rights, and the Reps are the reason we have a Conservative majority on the SC.

You have this completely backwards. That the Democrats have failed to deliver is the reason we have conservative majorities. They have no path forward to get these things that is rooted in political reality, but somehow I'm the traitor to the cause for pointing this out.

So, hey, you're backing the winners here! Too bad you, like most Rep voters, are working against your own self interest as long as you can stick it to those people who only work for 99% of the stuff you want.

You attack the people who at least vote for you by lying about them and insulting them. Somehow they are the ones that are the problem.

If indeed dissent is not tolerated within the Democratic Party, I'm out. At that point there is literally no reason to vote for them.

 

[Suddenly]

'You should get Manchin in line!'

'Ok, how?'

'I don't know, it's not my job to wave a magic wand, it's yours!'

'We don't have a magic wand.'

'That's it, you haven't earned my vote! I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue, that'll teach you!'

Maybe I should take this tact in my professional life. If something goes bad I can just tell my clients that they couldn't have done any better and tell them not to complain even when they continue to retain my services.

Sounds like a winning plan, really.