Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Vixen]

The fuss is not about letting women (or females, for that matter) have positions of influence and authority in society. The fuss is about what entitlements should be granted to people based on their gender self-ID, and what obligations their gender self=ID should impose on those around them.

In particular, the fuss is about transsexual rights arising from gender self-ID. The fuss is over questions like these:
- Should a male have the right to be housed with female prisoners, simply because he says he wants to?
- Should a male have the right to compete in sports with female athletes, simply because he says he wants to?
- Should a male count as a female, for the purposes of diverse representation in business and politics, simply because he says he wants to?

Ask your lovely trans friend these questions, and see if she kicks up a fuss. Ask her how she knows she's a woman, and see if she kicks up a fuss. Ask her what "woman" means to her, in the sense she believes she is one. As her what it means to her, to be treated "like a woman". Ask her if she's discussed her self perceptions with a mental health professional, and how she knows that social transition is a good and healthy reaction to her sense of being a woman. Maybe she'll be able to explain to you what the fuss is about.

First of all, in our culture it is considered an affront for a male to be considered effeminate. Some sociologists have argued for instance that the whole ritual of 'pink for girls' and playing with dolls was to condition girls into adopting a 'female role' and the taboo against boys doing the same, to make sure there is a firm division of sexes.

I wouldn't have dreamed of asking my trans friend, whom I am no longer in touch with, rude questions about personal matters but she did volunteer some information about the treatments she was going through. This person was quiet, reflective, serious and not at all some kind of predator looking to steal someone else's space. I've had gay friends who've played up to the whole camp thing, drag queen nights out etcetera, but at the end of the day they were proud to be male. Or in the case of my ex's sister, a butch lesbian, who would have been flattered to have been mistaken for a man as she was very much a cross dresser.

I don't see what the problem is with sport either. I was watching the World Athletics from Oregon last month and it struck me that how well people did in competition did sometimes hinge on their having an advantageous body shape. For example, some of the female sprinters looked decidedly male, all though as they had 'female' on their birth certificate they were allowed to enter. The triple jumpers and high jumpers were mostly long legged and lanky, the distance runners naturally lean and svelte, the sprint runners muscular, short and stocky, the huge Grenadian guy who won the Men's Javelin was built like a brick wall, head and shoulders taller than anyone else, and his shoulders twice as broad. No wonder he had no problem throwing over 90m with ease! Sport is unfair anyway.

If a man identifies as female, of course he should be housed as a female prisoner, assuming his gender issue is in good faith and not just a piss take or because of some kind of fraud. For example, in the cynical hope of getting softer treatment or with a view to predatory behaviour.

 

[smartcooky]

So let me summarize what Vixen's comments appear to mean.

1. Any man can, as of right, self-ID as a woman.
2. No-one is allowed to question this self-ID... because its rude to do so.
3. That anatomically complete male instantly becomes a woman.
4. He must now be referred to as "She".
5. "She" is now automatically allowed to enter women's intimate spaces such as public changing rooms, toilets and showers.

Have I got this right?

 

[Francesca R]

I knew a lovely transgender lady (male to female) and I had no problem at all accepting her as female.

Well that's not a remotely valid metric is it?

Change "a lovely transgender lady I know'' to "anyone and everyone who declares themself female regardless of whether I know them" And for "accepting as female" include "I welcome them into all female only settings that I could ever conceivably use"

Is there still no fuss for you?

 

[theprestige]

If a man identifies as female, of course he should be housed as a female prisoner

What does "identifies as female" mean to you, and why "of course"?

What objective qualities does a transwoman share with women, that she does not also share with men? What is it about these qualities that makes her female instead of male?

 

[theprestige]

So let me summarize what Vixen's comments appear to mean.

1. Any man can, as of right, self-ID as a woman.
2. No-one is allowed to question this self-ID... because its rude to do so.
3. That anatomically complete male instantly becomes a woman.
4. He must now be referred to as "She".
5. "She" is now automatically allowed to enter women's intimate spaces such as public changing rooms, toilets and showers.

Have I got this right?

You forgot prisons. Other than that, though, looks good to me.

 

[Vixen]

So let me summarize what Vixen's comments appear to mean.

1. Any man can, as of right, self-ID as a woman.
2. No-one is allowed to question this self-ID... because its rude to do so.
3. That anatomically complete male instantly becomes a woman.
4. He must now be referred to as "She".
5. "She" is now automatically allowed to enter women's intimate spaces such as public changing rooms, toilets and showers.

Have I got this right?

Do you ask your friends about their sex life? Or interrogate them about their anatomical bits? Of course not. If someone is called Philomena-Prunella and tell you to call them 'Pru', would you insist in calling them Philomena-Prunella instead?

I didn't say that an anatomically complete male instantly becomes a woman. IMV the very rare few males who strongly believe themselves to be misgendered will often have felt strongly enough to seek counselling and to have practised their female personna, in much the same way someone with an artistic bent will strive to be creative in their clothing and interior decoration. So if you meet someone who appears female and they inform you they are actually transgender, please be kind to them. It could have been you.

 

[Vixen]

What does "identifies as female" mean to you, and why "of course"?

What objective qualities does a transwoman share with women, that she does not also share with men? What is it about these qualities that makes her female instead of male?

I think it takes a great deal of courage for a young person to change gender, especially males, whom society drills into them from an early age not to be girlish and in addition, having all the male privileges on top. IMV a transgender person doesn't decide to change sex lightly. It is borne of a strong emotional identity and conviction they are of the wrong gender.

So given such a person is vulnerable to disparagement, disrespect and discrimination, forcing them to enter a male prison - known for their culture of rape and bullying - strikes me as being unnecessarily cruel and unwarranted.

 

[Vixen]

Well that's not a remotely valid metric is it?

Change "a lovely transgender lady I know'' to "anyone and everyone who declares themself female regardless of whether I know them" And for "accepting as female" include "I welcome them into all female only settings that I could ever conceivably use"

Is there still no fuss for you?

For a start, I only ever met my transgender friend in restaurants when we met up as a group of friends. I never liked sharing changing rooms at the swimming pool or departmental stores anyway.

 

[theprestige]

Do you ask your friends about their sex life? Or interrogate them about their anatomical bits? Of course not.

Trans rights activists are telling us that gender self-ID creates obligations and entitlements that need to be reflected in public policy.

That's the only reason we're asking them about these things. Because they're claiming that these things not only matter to them, but matter to the rest of us.

They're claiming that gender self-ID mandates certain changes in public policy, to their benefit and to the detriment of women. It is entirely appropriate to ask questions, when we are being asked to make policy changes like these.

This is why I suggested you ask your wonderful trans friend some of these questions. Because how we handle public policy about trans rights depends very much on trans answers to these questions.

Anyway, answer my questions to you: What objective qualities do transwomen have in common with women, that they do not have in common with men? What is it about these qualities that makes them female rather than male.

 

[theprestige]

IMV the very rare few males who strongly believe themselves to be misgendered will often have felt strongly enough to seek counselling and to have practised their female personna, in much the same way someone with an artistic bent will strive to be creative in their clothing and interior decoration. So if you meet someone who appears female and they inform you they are actually transgender, please be kind to them. It could have been you.

IMV a transgender person doesn't decide to change sex lightly. It is borne of a strong emotional identity and conviction they are of the wrong gender.

You are too trusting. Your view is mistaken. We have counter-examples of bad actors abusing the trust system to exploit, harass, and sexually abuse women.

So given such a person is vulnerable to disparagement, disrespect and discrimination, forcing them to enter a male prison - known for their culture of rape and bullying - strikes me as being unnecessarily cruel and unwarranted.

We have counter-examples of men claiming to be women, bringing the male prison's "culture of rape and bullying" into women's prisons and inflicting it on their fellow inmates.

Inmates over which they have an innate physical advantage, by virtue of being male. (Which is why they should be housed in male prisons.)

 

[lionking]

So given such a person is vulnerable to disparagement, disrespect and discrimination, forcing them to enter a male prison - known for their culture of rape and bullying - strikes me as being unnecessarily cruel and unwarranted.

Do you think women prisoners should have an opinion about this? Do they have the right not to be raped by male-bodied transwomen?

 

[Steersman]

Not to disrespect anybody else's POV ....

The horror!

As Thomas Paine once put it, "He who dares not offend cannot be honest."

I think it takes a great deal of courage for a young person to change gender, especially males, whom society drills into them from an early age not to be girlish and in addition, having all the male privileges on top. IMV a transgender person doesn't decide to change sex lightly. It is borne of a strong emotional identity and conviction they are of the wrong gender.

Kinda looks like you're changing horses in midstream - always a hazardous operation. There's a fundamental difference between sex (reproductive abilities) and gender (largely just personalities and personality types). Conflating the two concepts causes no end of problems. See this editorial at the British Medical Journal for details:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n735

But if some male wants to change his gender into a more feminine presentation by wearing a dress then I guess he's entitled and able to do so. But nobody, no human in any case, changes their sex.

By the standard biological definitions published in most credible dictionaries, encyclopedias, and biological journals, to have a sex is to have functional gonads of either of two types:

male (adjective): Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.

https://www.lexico.com/definition/male

Female (symbol: ♀) is the sex of an organism that produces the large non-motile ova (egg cells), the type of gamete (sex cell) that fuses with the male gamete during sexual reproduction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female

Guys who cut their dicks off don't turn themselves into females (sex), they don't magically acquire the ability to produce ova - even if the "presentation" of their genitalia looks more like that of actual females.

They turn themselves into sexless eunuchs.

Seems like a high price to dish with the girls about the latest nail polishes ...

So given such a person is vulnerable to disparagement, disrespect and discrimination, forcing them to enter a male prison - known for their culture of rape and bullying - strikes me as being unnecessarily cruel and unwarranted.

Guess we should then transfer all of the inmates of male prisons over to the female prisons to solve that problem of a "culture of rape and bullying" ...

 

[smartcooky]

Do you ask your friends about their sex life? Or interrogate them about their anatomical bits? Of course not. If someone is called Philomena-Prunella and tell you to call them 'Pru', would you insist in calling them Philomena-Prunella instead?

A strawman's argument at best. Your reply does not even come close to addressing what I asked

I didn't say that an anatomically complete male instantly becomes a woman. IMV the very rare few males who strongly believe themselves to be misgendered will often have felt strongly enough to seek counselling and to have practised their female personna, in much the same way someone with an artistic bent will strive to be creative in their clothing and interior decoration. So if you meet someone who appears female and they inform you they are actually transgender, please be kind to them.

Nonetheless, that is what you are implying

It could have been you.

Not a ******* chance!


Lets present you with a simple question. I know you are a woman, so have a look at these three people...

All three are self-IDed transgender women;
One of them was the subject of a police search when they went missing
One of them was arrested and charged with video voyeurism in a woman's toilet in a Target Store
One of them was convicted of five counts of rape against children aged between 13 and 15.

Tell me what your reaction would be to any one of these three people walking into a women's public toilet, when you were in there on your own.
.
.

 

[Steersman]

<snip>
Anyway, answer my questions to you: What objective qualities do transwomen have in common with women, that they do not have in common with men? What is it about these qualities that makes them female rather than male.

Not to get all "vehement" in agreeing with one part of your comment and then wind up in "vehement disagreement" with the rest of it ... , but while I quite agree with "objective qualities", the issue is "which ones?"

One might say that transwomen have, for example, hearts and lungs and 10 fingers and 10 toes in common with women (i.e., adult human females [sex]). But, of course, that doesn't address the problem - which is basically that transwomen have penises - or have had them removed - and have, in most cases, an XY karyotype while women don't.

That's the crux of the matter - what we CALL those individuals is almost entirely irrelevant to the rights that society - wisely or not - decides to grant to one group that it denies to the other. Squabbling over the names we attach to those groups just muddies the waters and precludes dealing with the question of whether those rights are justified or not.

You might be interested in an oldish essay at Quillette on the topic; a salient and relevant quote or two:

Diamonds still cut glass regardless of your word for “diamond,” and “cut,” and “glass.” ~Ken Wilber

Truth matters. Words matter. What is objectively the case matters. And insofar as our words and concepts can be about the objective world at all, then the shared set of words and meanings that we collectively use and are permitted to use to describe, navigate, and refer to that objective world matters.

https://archive.ph/4e2n0

 

[Francesca R]

For a start, I only ever met my transgender friend in restaurants when we met up as a group of friends. I never liked sharing changing rooms at the swimming pool or departmental stores anyway.

Right. I think your pronouncements qualify as argument from inexperience then.

 

[Vixen]

Trans rights activists are telling us that gender self-ID creates obligations and entitlements that need to be reflected in public policy.

That's the only reason we're asking them about these things. Because they're claiming that these things not only matter to them, but matter to the rest of us.

They're claiming that gender self-ID mandates certain changes in public policy, to their benefit and to the detriment of women. It is entirely appropriate to ask questions, when we are being asked to make policy changes like these.

This is why I suggested you ask your wonderful trans friend some of these questions. Because how we handle public policy about trans rights depends very much on trans answers to these questions.

Anyway, answer my questions to you: What objective qualities do transwomen have in common with women, that they do not have in common with men? What is it about these qualities that makes them female rather than male.

On the one hand we have the political activists and social campaigners. They'll do things such as present as a man with a beard heavily made up, with a 'female hairdo', jewellery and feminine clothes.

On the other, there are the ordinary private individuals, mentally distressed by their assigned gender. They go through a long process before they are allowed drastic surgery. If someone has a deformed nose or is unhappily grossly obese, we don't deny them cosmetic surgery to help with their self image, although of course, inherent unhappiness won't besolved by a surgeon's knife.

In the case of activisits, personally I don't like the 'bearded lady look' but I see the point they are making; just how incredibly highly artificial so-called 'femininity' is, and anyone can adopt it.

My question to you is is who are we really? Once you strip away one's name, inculcation from an early age via school, workplace and socialising of how one should act, male versus female. Who decided men should wear trousers and have short hair...? Strip all of the social constructs away, one's name, one's taught manners, one's clothing, one's education, place names, fancy titles, fancy cars, homes, etcetera and what are we left with? The relaisation we are all just a bunch of wild animals who like to rut and procreate now and then but mostly look the same apart from the 'naughty bits' and extravagent plumage and impressive horns* during the mating season. You tell me what will be lost if a transgender person nips into a Ladies toilet instead of the Gents?


* Stop giggling at the back.

 

[Vixen]

You are too trusting. Your view is mistaken. We have counter-examples of bad actors abusing the trust system to exploit, harass, and sexually abuse women.


We have counter-examples of men claiming to be women, bringing the male prison's "culture of rape and bullying" into women's prisons and inflicting it on their fellow inmates.

Inmates over which they have an innate physical advantage, by virtue of being male. (Which is why they should be housed in male prisons.)

You are making the erroneous assumption that the sole aim of a male to female transgender is to prey on women. There will always be con merchants and predators who carefully select their targets. For example, paedophiles who gravitate to working with children to be nearer their prey. It is not exclusive to transgender persons. Why would you assume those persons would be more prone to criminal behaviour than average?

 

[Vixen]

You are too trusting. Your view is mistaken. We have counter-examples of bad actors abusing the trust system to exploit, harass, and sexually abuse women.


We have counter-examples of men claiming to be women, bringing the male prison's "culture of rape and bullying" into women's prisons and inflicting it on their fellow inmates.

Inmates over which they have an innate physical advantage, by virtue of being male. (Which is why they should be housed in male prisons.)

Women's prisons already have a certain predatory culture. Why would you assume it needs a transgender male to introduce it?

 

[Vixen]

Do you think women prisoners should have an opinion about this? Do they have the right not to be raped by male-bodied transwomen?

They get targetted by the lesbian prisoners anyway. Since when did prisoners have any say in what happens to them anyway. Have female prisoners ever been consulted, when separated from their kids, made to go into labour chained to the bed, eat tasteless food, get banged up in their dingy cells: it is news to me that female prisoners have their opinions sought.

 

[Vixen]

The horror!

As Thomas Paine once put it, "He who dares not offend cannot be honest."


Kinda looks like you're changing horses in midstream - always a hazardous operation. There's a fundamental difference between sex (reproductive abilities) and gender (largely just personalities and personality types). Conflating the two concepts causes no end of problems. See this editorial at the British Medical Journal for details:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n735

But if some male wants to change his gender into a more feminine presentation by wearing a dress then I guess he's entitled and able to do so. But nobody, no human in any case, changes their sex.

By the standard biological definitions published in most credible dictionaries, encyclopedias, and biological journals, to have a sex is to have functional gonads of either of two types:



https://www.lexico.com/definition/male



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female

Guys who cut their dicks off don't turn themselves into females (sex), they don't magically acquire the ability to produce ova - even if the "presentation" of their genitalia looks more like that of actual females.

They turn themselves into sexless eunuchs.

Seems like a high price to dish with the girls about the latest nail polishes ...


Guess we should then transfer all of the inmates of male prisons over to the female prisons to solve that problem of a "culture of rape and bullying" ...

Of course 'biology is destiny' to a certain extent but women only produce ova for a short period (all present from birth) gradually becoming more and more infertile. With the advent of the pill, ova not even needed to be a woman.

Yes, surgery to change sex is extreme and vastly different from someone who is merely, say, a cross dresser. However, such individual do exist who 'know' from an early age they are 'in the wrong body', so they'll change their name, wear different clothes and even go so far as the surgeon's knife. I don't know why this is so abhorrent to people that there are some who have a desperate need to identify as a different gender.


When you refer to 'sexless eunuchs' and 'a high price to dish with the girls about the latest nail polishes' it sounds like you have the classic male fear - no doubt inculcated into you from an early age - of being thought a girl.


As if a transgender undergoes life-changing surgery just so that they can gossip about nail polish 'with the girls'.

Really!