Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Matthew Best]

I'm sure this has already been discussed, so I apologize for not going through 100s of pages of this thread (I wish these mega-threads would have a cliff notes version...) But could you inform me how structural brain differences (studies that show trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with) fit in with the "developmental pathways" definition? Pleas and thank you!

Without having even looked at the evidence, I am going to go ahead and let you know that this is probably disputed.

 

[Elaedith]

I'm sure this has already been discussed, so I apologize for not going through 100s of pages of this thread (I wish these mega-threads would have a cliff notes version...) But could you inform me how structural brain differences (studies that show trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with) fit in with the "developmental pathways" definition? Pleas and thank you!

Studies don't show 'trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with'. All of the studies that purport to show this, as far as I am aware, fail to control for sexual orientation of participants (these studies are typically done with those who have the early-onset type of dysphoria, and are disproportionately like to be same-sex attracted).

See critique by Cantor here.

When sexual orientation is controlled for, the only difference that appears to be consistently associated with transgender identity is in the networks related to self and body perception. For example, in this study:

Structural connections in the brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation

"Several previous neuro-imaging studies have suggested that sexual differentiation of the brain is less pronounced in transgender individuals12,13,14,15, but none did specifically investigate sex, gender identity and sexual orientation in the same setting, directly comparing transgender groups with both cisgender homosexual and heterosexual controls. We found a significant main effect of Sex in several major white matter tracts (with higher FA in males), but, notably, not for Sexual orientation. Furthermore, congruent with our primary hypothesis there was a significant effect of Gender identity in the right IFOF. In the other tracts measured, the present study revealed, like in several previous studies, sex-atypical FA values in transgender individuals. However, and importantly, these values became sex-typical after accounting for sexual orientation."

This has now been replicated several times in very recent studies. I don't have time to find all the links now, but some have probably been posted already although there was one that came out just a week or two ago.

This doesn't mean that these brain difference cause gender dysphoria since brain states are simply correlates.

 

[Steersman]

I'm sure this has already been discussed, so I apologize for not going through 100s of pages of this thread (I wish these mega-threads would have a cliff notes version...)

Well, I should hope so!

But could you inform me how structural brain differences (studies that show trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with) fit in with the "developmental pathways" definition? Pleas and thank you!

Just asking questions? ....

But a good one, the crux of the matter, one that highlights the rank insanity of that schlock - reductio ad absurdum, indeed.

More particularly, if transpeople or the intersex - or those otherwise neither male nor female ... - exhibit traits that are part of the "developmental pathways" that are part and parcel of the "past-present-future" reproductive abilities of those who are, supposedly, male and female, then, ipso facto, they're both male and female.

Not intrinsically a problem in itself as many species are hermaphroditic, but it conflicts, right out of the chute, with the many studies that insist that there are NO human hermaphrodites. Those peddling that "theory" need to get their ducks in a row and publish their results - toot sweet - as I'm sure there's a Nobel or two in the cards for them ...

Maybe moot whether "structural brain differences" really qualify as "developmental pathways" related to "past, present, or future abilities to reproduce". But once those proponents have crossed that Rubicon, let that "mad" cat out of the bag, then I don't see they have an effen leg to stand on when or if others claim that those brain differences are also intrinsic parts and parcels of those reproductive abilities.

Though, somewhat en passant, the developing consensus is that sex and gender are entirely different kettles of fish - even if the boundaries of and definitions for both are somewhat "in flux". See the British Medical Journal editorial and my own kick at that kitty:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n735

https://humanuseofhumanbeings.substack.com/p/welcome

 

[stanfr]

Studies don't show 'trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with'. All of the studies that purport to show this, as far as I am aware, fail to control for sexual orientation of participants (these studies are typically done with those who have the early-onset type of dysphoria, and are disproportionately like to be same-sex attracted).

See critique by Cantor here.

When sexual orientation is controlled for, the only difference that appears to be consistently associated with transgender identity is in the networks related to self and body perception. For example, in this study:

Structural connections in the brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation

"Several previous neuro-imaging studies have suggested that sexual differentiation of the brain is less pronounced in transgender individuals12,13,14,15, but none did specifically investigate sex, gender identity and sexual orientation in the same setting, directly comparing transgender groups with both cisgender homosexual and heterosexual controls. We found a significant main effect of Sex in several major white matter tracts (with higher FA in males), but, notably, not for Sexual orientation. Furthermore, congruent with our primary hypothesis there was a significant effect of Gender identity in the right IFOF. In the other tracts measured, the present study revealed, like in several previous studies, sex-atypical FA values in transgender individuals. However, and importantly, these values became sex-typical after accounting for sexual orientation."

This has now been replicated several times in very recent studies. I don't have time to find all the links now, but some have probably been posted already although there was one that came out just a week or two ago.

This doesn't mean that these brain difference cause gender dysphoria since brain states are simply correlates.

thanks for the info, I will check out the links!

 

[smartcooky]

I'm sure this has already been discussed, so I apologize for not going through 100s of pages of this thread (I wish these mega-threads would have a cliff notes version...) But could you inform me how structural brain differences (studies that show trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with) fit in with the "developmental pathways" definition? Pleas and thank you!

I don't know about the "cliff notes" version but I can give you a reasonably short answer to the question you ask.

The idea that the brain structures of trans people are "like the gender the person identifies with" is a load of unmitigated bollocks made up from whole cloth by a bunch of lying bastards who are hell-bent on pushing an agenda to allow transgender people to invade and infiltrate the safe spaces of cisgender people just because they feel like it.

One of the people pushing this is a psychoquack by the name of "Dr" Murat Altinay... the Andrew Wakefield of transgender studies. There is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that the brain structures of transpeople are like the brains of people of the gender they identify with. The reality is, there is no appreciable difference between male and female brain structures in the first place!

https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/

Is it possible for the sex of your brain to mismatch your body?

"For this to be true it must first be shown that male and female brains are different in the first place. In reality male and female brains do not look very different from each other. In fact it is very difficult for experts in the area to reliably tell them apart.​

The idea that children are born with an innate ‘gender identity’ which develops pre-natally and is impervious to environmental influence is not supported by any credible science.

Body and brain are interconnected; scientists have found no separate innate ‘gender’ area of the brain which is fixed at birth. Children’s brains are very plastic; they develop through interaction with people and the environment and they are constantly absorbing information and influences which shape them.

Research in neuroscience consistently confirms that although sex-based differences exist in regions of the brain, there is no 100% ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain and that all children are born with the potential to develop their own unique characteristics of behaviour, interests, talents and personality, regardless of their biological sex."​

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[stanfr]

I don't know about the "cliff notes" version but I can give you a reasonably short answer to the question you ask.

The idea that the brain structures of trans people are "like the gender the person identifies with" is a load of unmitigated bollocks made up from whole cloth by a bunch of lying bastards who are hell-bent on pushing an agenda to allow transgender people to invade and infiltrate the safe spaces of cisgender people just because they feel like it.
One of the people pushing this is a psychoquack by the name of "Dr" Murat Altinay... the Andrew Wakefield of transgender studies. There is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that the brain structures of transpeople are like the brains of people of the gender they identify with. The reality is, there is no appreciable difference between male and female brain structures in the first place!

https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/

Is it possible for the sex of your brain to mismatch your body?

"For this to be true it must first be shown that male and female brains are different in the first place. In reality male and female brains do not look very different from each other. In fact it is very difficult for experts in the area to reliably tell them apart.​

The idea that children are born with an innate ‘gender identity’ which develops pre-natally and is impervious to environmental influence is not supported by any credible science.

Body and brain are interconnected; scientists have found no separate innate ‘gender’ area of the brain which is fixed at birth. Children’s brains are very plastic; they develop through interaction with people and the environment and they are constantly absorbing information and influences which shape them.

Research in neuroscience consistently confirms that although sex-based differences exist in regions of the brain, there is no 100% ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain and that all children are born with the potential to develop their own unique characteristics of behaviour, interests, talents and personality, regardless of their biological sex."​

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well I was talking about gender, not 'male vs female' brain. And while your conclusions may be correct, I don't think the highlighted bias on your part strengthens your argument.

 

[smartcooky]

well I was talking about gender, not 'male vs female' brain.

Well actually, you asked about the structures of the brain....

"... could you inform me how structural brain differences (studies that show trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with) fit in with the "developmental pathways" definition?"

While you may have been talking about gender, a discussion about the brain structures of males and females is unavoidable, because in order to investigate, for example the claim that a transwoman's brain structure aligns with the brain structure of a cisgender woman (a female), you must neccessarily define what the brain structure of a cisgender woman looks like, so that you have something with which to make the physical comparison.

And yes, I am biased, and happy to say so.

IMO, "gender identity" is a load of politically-correct, post-truth hooey. I do not believe "Gender Dysphoria" is a real, physiological condition. I think its more "Gender Delusionality", a psychosomatic condition that results from environment and upbringing - it has nothing to do with brain physiology. There might be a dozen or more recognised genders, but are only TWO sexes, and things such as sports, ablutions and other safe spaces are segregated on the basis of sex NOT gender!

While I believe transgender people ought to be recognised as valid and should be granted rights (just as any other mentally ill person is), those rights must not encroach or impinge on the rights of others. Essentially, transwomen can dress up in women's clothing and hang around in bars as much as they like, but they can stay the **** out of women toilets and changing rooms, because, to paraphrase a meme often used by transgender advocates "It's what's between your legs that matters, not what's between your ears"

 

[stanfr]

Well actually, you asked about the structures of the brain....

"... could you inform me how structural brain differences (studies that show trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with) fit in with the "developmental pathways" definition?"

While you may have been talking about gender, a discussion about the brain structures of males and females is unavoidable, because in order to investigate, for example the claim that a transwoman's brain structure aligns with the brain structure of a cisgender woman (a female), you must neccessarily define what the brain structure of a cisgender woman looks like, so that you have something with which to make the physical comparison.

And yes, I am biased, and happy to say so.

IMO, "gender identity" is a load of politically-correct, post-truth hooey. I do not believe "Gender Dysphoria" is a real, physiological condition. I think its more "Gender Delusionality", a psychosomatic condition that results from environment and upbringing - it has nothing to do with brain physiology. There might be a dozen or more recognised genders, but are only TWO sexes, and things such as sports, ablutions and other safe spaces are segregated on the basis of sex NOT gender!

While I believe transgender people ought to be recognised as valid and should be granted rights (just as any other mentally ill person is), those rights must not encroach or impinge on the rights of others. Essentially, transwomen can dress up in women's clothing and hang around in bars as much as they like, but they can stay the **** out of women toilets and changing rooms, because, to paraphrase a meme often used by transgender advocates "It's what's between your legs that matters, not what's between your ears"

OK, 'structural' may have been poor choice of word.
What is your opinion of the Bakker study?

 

[theprestige]

I'm sure this has already been discussed, so I apologize for not going through 100s of pages of this thread (I wish these mega-threads would have a cliff notes version...) But could you inform me how structural brain differences (studies that show trans brains are more like the gender the person identifies with) fit in with the "developmental pathways" definition? Pleas and thank you! ; )

I'll be more than happy to address the points you raised, just as soon as you address mine.

 

[smartcooky]

OK, 'structural' may have been poor choice of word.
What is your opinion of the Bakker study?

I think Bakker is right.... dinosaurs were warm-blooded.

OK, I'm just joshin' ya. You mean Julie Bakker, right?

One word... "pseudoscience"

 

[Steersman]

IMO, "gender identity" is a load of politically-correct, post-truth hooey. I do not believe "Gender Dysphoria" is a real, physiological condition. I think its more "Gender Delusionality", a psychosomatic condition that results from environment and upbringing - it has nothing to do with brain physiology. There might be a dozen or more recognised genders, but are only TWO sexes, and things such as sports, ablutions and other safe spaces are segregated on the basis of sex NOT gender!

Quite a bit of justification for your comments about "gender identity".

ICYMI, see philosopher Michael Robillard, writing in an article at Quillette on The Incoherence of Gender Ideology who emphasizes its entirely subjective nature:

The second source and primary culprit of confusion within the present transgender debate, however, is the notion of “gender identity.” This is so since “gender identity,” on the gender theorist’s own account, is defined entirely by one’s own wholly subjective determination. Much like Wittgenstein’s hypothetical private language, this wholly subjective and internal pointing to some referent accessible only to the speaker, fundamentally severs the connection [to various linguistic terms with publicly agreed upon analytic meanings]

https://michaelrobillard.substack.com/p/the-incoherence-of-gender-ideology

See too Sahar Sadjadi writing in the Journal of Cultural Anthropology:

Moreover, the magico-spiritual undertone of the conversations I witnessed was striking, perhaps lending testimony to how mysterious these children who transgressed one of the most entrenched rules of their culture appeared. .... As a physician and anthropologist of medicine, I had begun this project as a critical study of a cutting-edge clinical field; I was perplexed by this merging of science, magic, and religion in explaining children’s gender transition.

https://journal.culanth.org/index.php/ca/article/view/3728/430

"magico-spiritual undertone"; "merging of science, magic, and religion" - seems a pretty damning indictment.

Though many others have, with quite bit of justification, argued that "gender" is just a rough synonym for, in the main, personalities and personality types - of which there are billions and billions.

See my Substack for an elaboration on those themes:

https://humanuseofhumanbeings.substack.com/p/welcome

 

[stanfr]

I think Bakker is right.... dinosaurs were warm-blooded.

OK, I'm just joshin' ya. You mean Julie Bakker, right?

One word... "pseudoscience"

Because of the lack of control for sexual orientation or some other reason?
Most of the criticisms i see of the study seem to come from right wingers or christian sites...

 

[smartcooky]

Because of the lack of control for sexual orientation or some other reason?

Yup, as Elaedith said.

Most of the criticisms i see of the study seem to come from right wingers or christian sites...

Well, I'm on the political left, and an anti-theist. Go figure!

 

[d4m10n]

What is your opinion of the Bakker study?

This one?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886920300738

 

[Elaedith]

This one?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886920300738

I'm assuming it's this research, as I believe it received a lot of media attention.

The problem is that this is a conference abstract, meaning there is not a lot of detail of methodology. I've had a quick look but haven't yet been able to find any full publication by this author that appears to be based on this research.

However, I think it's a fair assumption that if they had controlled for sexual orientation, this would be mentioned in the abstract.

Note they also found evidence for some brain differences associated with self-perception: "These results on brain structure are thus partially in line with a sex-atypical differentiation of the brain during early development in individuals with GD, but might also suggest that other mechanisms are involved. Indeed, using resting state MRI, we observed GD-specific functional connectivity in the visual network in adolescent girls with GD. The latter is in support of a more recent hypothesis on alterations in brain networks important for own body perception and self-referential processing in individuals with GD."

The studies that are mostly more recent than this research and which do control for sexual orientation have found, fairly consistently I believe, that the 'sex-atypical differentiation of the brain' is accounted for by sexual orientation and only the 'body perception and self-referential processing' networks distinguish those with gender dysphoria.

ETA: also I forgot to mention that obviously research on early gender dysphoria that uses children cannot control for sexual orientation since we don't assign children as having a sexual orientation before sexual maturity.

 

[smartcooky]

I'm assuming it's this research, as I believe it received a lot of media attention.

The problem is that this is a conference abstract, meaning there is not a lot of detail of methodology. I've had a quick look but haven't yet been able to find any full publication by this author that appears to be based on this research.

However, I think it's a fair assumption that if they had controlled for sexual orientation, this would be mentioned in the abstract.

Note they also found evidence for some brain differences associated with self-perception: "These results on brain structure are thus partially in line with a sex-atypical differentiation of the brain during early development in individuals with GD, but might also suggest that other mechanisms are involved. Indeed, using resting state MRI, we observed GD-specific functional connectivity in the visual network in adolescent girls with GD. The latter is in support of a more recent hypothesis on alterations in brain networks important for own body perception and self-referential processing in individuals with GD."

The studies that are mostly more recent than this research and which do control for sexual orientation have found, fairly consistently I believe, that the 'sex-atypical differentiation of the brain' is accounted for by sexual orientation and only the 'body perception and self-referential processing' networks distinguish those with gender dysphoria.

ETA: also I forgot to mention that obviously research on early gender dysphoria that uses children cannot control for sexual orientation since we don't assign children as having a sexual orientation before sexual maturity.

Yup. As I said, Julie Bakker's "work" (if you can all it that) is pseudo-science claptrap.

 

[Vixen]

Not to disrespect anybody else's POV but personally I cannot see what the fuss is about. I knew a lovely transgender lady (male to female) and I had no problem at all accepting her as female.

Gender assignment is a large part cultural, after all, and of course there are differences due to the effect of hormones. There was an ancient warrior discovered in an archeological dig in Finland who whilst having a feminine appearance of a fierce Viking type, complete with warrior weapons and clothing, she/he was of indeterminate gender. Nobody seemed to mind or they would not have given him/her leadership status.

The warrior was wearing typical feminine clothes of the Middle Ages and buried on a soft feather blanket with valuable furs, trinkets and brooches, researchers said, pointing to high social status.
Two swords were also found, including a hiltless sword on the skeleton's left hip.

The grave in Suontaka Vesitorninmäki, Hattula dates back to between AD1050 and AD1300 and was first discovered in 1968 during a digging project for a water pipe.

'The buried individual seems to have been a highly respected member of their community,' said Ulla Moilanen from the University of Turku in southwestern Finland.

DM

This person was not a biological female, but a male with an extra X chromosome, yet was socially accepted as female AND A WARRIOR CHIEF in that highly macho culture.

 

[Rolfe]

Lovely transgender male to female people exist. Unfortunately there is no way to give them legal rights to enter women's intimate spaces and exclude the non-lovely ones. Or, indeed, any man at all, it turns out.

 

[theprestige]

Not to disrespect anybody else's POV but personally I cannot see what the fuss is about. I knew a lovely transgender lady (male to female) and I had no problem at all accepting her as female.

Gender assignment is a large part cultural, after all, and of course there are differences due to the effect of hormones. There was an ancient warrior discovered in an archeological dig in Finland who whilst having a feminine appearance of a fierce Viking type, complete with warrior weapons and clothing, she/he was of indeterminate gender. Nobody seemed to mind or they would not have given him/her leadership status.

DM

This person was not a biological female, but a male with an extra X chromosome, yet was socially accepted as female AND A WARRIOR CHIEF in that highly macho culture.

The fuss is not about letting women (or females, for that matter) have positions of influence and authority in society. The fuss is about what entitlements should be granted to people based on their gender self-ID, and what obligations their gender self=ID should impose on those around them.

In particular, the fuss is about transsexual rights arising from gender self-ID. The fuss is over questions like these:
- Should a male have the right to be housed with female prisoners, simply because he says he wants to?
- Should a male have the right to compete in sports with female athletes, simply because he says he wants to?
- Should a male count as a female, for the purposes of diverse representation in business and politics, simply because he says he wants to?

Ask your lovely trans friend these questions, and see if she kicks up a fuss. Ask her how she knows she's a woman, and see if she kicks up a fuss. Ask her what "woman" means to her, in the sense she believes she is one. As her what it means to her, to be treated "like a woman". Ask her if she's discussed her self perceptions with a mental health professional, and how she knows that social transition is a good and healthy reaction to her sense of being a woman. Maybe she'll be able to explain to you what the fuss is about.

 

[Vixen]

Lovely transgender male to female people exist. Unfortunately there is no way to give them legal rights to enter women's intimate spaces and exclude the non-lovely ones. Or, indeed, any man at all, it turns out.

That is to assume that they have ulterior motives, when perhaps they have gone through much reflection and sturm und drang, when they reached the point of being sure they were in the wrong body. Surely such a person has better things to do than seek to gain entry into a Ladies loo, which they could do anyway with a spot of disguise, if that is their nefarious intention.