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Answer to the Problem of Evil

psionl0 said:
Who makes up these rules? There is no argument that God gave no free will whatsoever.
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I have no time for the notion of God giving man free will.

God supposedly makes all the souls in his soul factory, before they get stuck onto humans, at whatever stage of maturity, the religious think is correct. The maker of the soul is responsible for the ultimate result.
 
Emre_1974, please answer the following posts:

Little 10 Toes said:
So it's okay to kill someone because they might cause someone to disbelieve. Not will, did, or had, but might.
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Emre_1974tr said:
No, there he is a servant directly commissioned by God. It's just like the angels of death. Or doomsday workers.

Otherwise, nobody can slap anybody for their faith:


https://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=3774.0
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Little 10 Toes said:
Who brought up slapping?

Your post does nothing to counter the fact that it's okay to kill someone because they might cause someone to disbelieve. Not will, did, or had, but might.

I'm not going to go to all the sites that you post. I went to one and that's more than enough.
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Thor 2 said:
I have no time for the notion of God giving man free will.
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You have no time for the notion of a god at all (other than to conclude that there is no such thing).

The idea that a fictional god can not create people with free will is just silly. Like I say, who makes up these rules?
 
psionl0 said:
You have no time for the notion of a god at all (other than to conclude that there is no such thing).

The idea that a fictional god can not create people with free will is just silly. Like I say, who makes up these rules?
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I see no good reason why a fictional god, or a real one for that matter, could not create people with free will. It seems fundamentally easy to do so. A god can promise anything and any god worthy of the name will make good on it. My argument is, and always has been, that I think the personal, intervening, miracle-producing god that many religions describe has not done this.
 
bruto said:
I see no good reason why a fictional god, or a real one for that matter, could not create people with free will. It seems fundamentally easy to do so. A god can promise anything and any god worthy of the name will make good on it. My argument is, and always has been, that I think the personal, intervening, miracle-producing god that many religions describe has not done this.
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If God has not created people with free will then that means that he has programmed every single choice that every individual ever made and will ever make. It means that he created many people for the sole purpose of subjecting them to non-stop infinite torture for all eternity. That sounds rather despicable.

However, I suspect that your reasoning is the reverse of this. It seems like you have decided that God is despicable therefore he did not give people free will.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
We have not got souls:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/2011/07/nobody-has-got-ghost-according-to-quran.html

Peace
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You complete clot head, you rely on a book of nonsense. You say our bodies will be recreated either in heaven or hell on judgement day. But there are a million holes in that theory. For example what happens to a baby that dies, it cannot be judged because it has done nothing. Also would it be reborn as a baby then grow up in the afterlife?. Then there is the problem that if we live for eternity in our physical bodies we would not have enough brain cells to build new memories. Consider if our reanimated self lives for thousands of years, but the brain can only remember the first few hundred years then the memory cells would all be used up.

I am telling you that after many years of receiving messages from my departed relatives, they are alive and well and living in their spirit bodies.

You have been duped by the lies of Muhammad.

There is no heaven or hell, and there will be no judgement day, there is only our state of mind. We evolve over many lifetimes, and ascend to heightened state of evolution where our consciousness rises above the mundane.

Throw away the unholy Quran and study Buddhism or the Upanishads for a change.
 
Can a Christian please resolve fro me whether you go to Heaven why you die (as JC told the pair He was hanging around with) or do you have to wait around for Judgement Day as The Book of Revelation somewhat inarticulately informs us?
 
Scorpion said:
You complete clot head, you rely on a book of no.
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1- Guilt needs proof, but innocence does not. So babies go to Paradise.

2- The brain and body live forever healthy and young. Even in our mortal universe there are living beings who can remain eternally young. Moreover, the Hereafter Universe, called the Lord's Floor, has different physical laws. The only immortal universe is on the Lord's Floor. It is the only universe that will not be destroyed by the Big Crunch and the living beings and planets in it will remain alive forever as described in the verses.

3- I know all of your spiritist perverted teachings in depth. Why are you postponing the exorcism session to get the demons out of you? You yourself admitted that you have thousands of demons with hot energy inside your body. Also, those so-called spirits you are seeing are demons.
 
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Emre_1974tr said:
1- Guilt needs proof, but innocence does not. So babies go to Paradise.

2- The brain and body live forever healthy and young. Even in our mortal universe there are living beings who can remain eternally young. Moreover, the Hereafter Universe, called the Lord's Floor, has different physical laws. The only immortal universe is on the Lord's Floor. It is the only universe that will not be destroyed by the Big Crunch and the living beings and planets in it will remain alive forever as described in the verses.

3- I know all of your spiritist perverted teachings in depth. Why are you postponing the exorcism session to get the demons out of you? You yourself admitted that you have thousands of demons with hot energy inside your body. Also, those so-called spirits you are seeing are demons.
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Everything you believe is a lie. Mohammad carried out one of the greatest crimes against humanity in human history by creating and spreading his cult. The world would be a better place if he had never existed.
 
psionl0 said:
If God has not created people with free will then that means that he has programmed every single choice that every individual ever made and will ever make. It means that he created many people for the sole purpose of subjecting them to non-stop infinite torture for all eternity. That sounds rather despicable.

However, I suspect that your reasoning is the reverse of this. It seems like you have decided that God is despicable therefore he did not give people free will.
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Not quite.

My assumption is that an all-powerful god of the Jehovah sort, a creator who is, as many Bible followers claim, omni-everything, would be, at the moment of creation, eternal and all knowing, and thus essentially deterministic in a way that (because he's God and knows everything) excludes free will, unless he makes it a precondition of a particular item of creation. But he could endow people with free will at any time. He's God, for God's sake! But whether baked in or given later, I think in inherently contains a promise of "hands off" in life. Expulsions from the garden, floods, suspension of physical law, miracles, etc. all serve to remind us that we're only as free as the invisible hand on the helm wants us to be.

Although it's head of a pin sophistry to argue whether God can create a stone too heavy to lift, I think he can make a promise that is close enough to one he cannot break. Whether he couldn't or wouldn't, an honest god would not break a promise, so if he promised to give us free will, there we'd be. And if we get to hell and say "why didn't you stop me?" he can say "what do you think 'free' means?"

I could hardly think that God is despicable, since I don't think there is one anyway, but I think if there were a God of the sort usually meant when that word is used, he'd probably be just fine. And assuming that god made a world with some purpose other than just looking at himself in the mirror and knowing what's there anyway, I think free will would be an essential ingredient. I just don't think such a god is the one described in the Bible and worshiped by most churches. That one meddles.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Can a Christian please resolve fro me whether you go to Heaven why you die (as JC told the pair He was hanging around with) or do you have to wait around for Judgement Day as The Book of Revelation somewhat inarticulately informs us?
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I'm not a Christian, but I understand that the idea is that the body 'sleeps' in the ground, while the soul may or may not be in heaven. On Judgement Day, body and soul are reunited on earth. It's a mish-mash of ancient Jewish and pagan ideas about the after-life.
 
bruto said:
Not quite.

My assumption is that an all-powerful god of the Jehovah sort, a creator who is, as many Bible followers claim, omni-everything, would be, at the moment of creation, eternal and all knowing, and thus essentially deterministic in a way that (because he's God and knows everything) excludes free will, unless he makes it a precondition of a particular item of creation. But he could endow people with free will at any time. He's God, for God's sake! But whether baked in or given later, I think in inherently contains a promise of "hands off" in life. Expulsions from the garden, floods, suspension of physical law, miracles, etc. all serve to remind us that we're only as free as the invisible hand on the helm wants us to be.

Although it's head of a pin sophistry to argue whether God can create a stone too heavy to lift, I think he can make a promise that is close enough to one he cannot break. Whether he couldn't or wouldn't, an honest god would not break a promise, so if he promised to give us free will, there we'd be. And if we get to hell and say "why didn't you stop me?" he can say "what do you think 'free' means?"

I could hardly think that God is despicable, since I don't think there is one anyway, but I think if there were a God of the sort usually meant when that word is used, he'd probably be just fine. And assuming that god made a world with some purpose other than just looking at himself in the mirror and knowing what's there anyway, I think free will would be an essential ingredient. I just don't think such a god is the one described in the Bible and worshiped by most churches. That one meddles.
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Has anybody in this thread actually explained what they mean by non-deterministic free will? Deterministic with some quantum RNG thrown in? Is there something less noble about a process where our decisions are entirely deterministic, vs one where they are a combination of deterministic and random chance?
 
bruto said:
Whether he couldn't or wouldn't, an honest god would not break a promise, so if he promised to give us free will, there we'd be. And if we get to hell and say "why didn't you stop me?" he can say "what do you think 'free' means?"
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That reminds me of this story:
https://storiesforpreaching.com.au/sermonillustrations/i-sent-you-a-rowboat/

A very religious man was once caught in rising floodwaters. He climbed onto the roof of his house and trusted God to rescue him. A neighbour came by in a canoe and said, “The waters will soon be above your house. Hop in and we’ll paddle to safety.”

“No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

A short time later the police came by in a boat. “The waters will soon be above your house. Hop in and we’ll take you to safety.”

“No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

A little time later a rescue services helicopter hovered overhead, let down a rope ladder and said. “The waters will soon be above your house. Climb the ladder and we’ll fly you to safety.”

“No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

All this time the floodwaters continued to rise, until soon they reached above the roof and the religious man drowned. When he arrived at heaven he demanded an audience with God. Ushered into God’s throne room he said, “Lord, why am I here in heaven? I prayed for you to save me, I trusted you to save me from that flood.”

“Yes you did my child” replied the Lord. “And I sent you a canoe, a boat and a helicopter. But you never got in.”

If God sets things up to give us options, whether via natural means or through miracles, is that violating free-will?
 
psionl0 said:
If God has not created people with free will then that means that he has programmed every single choice that every individual ever made and will ever make. It means that he created many people for the sole purpose of subjecting them to non-stop infinite torture for all eternity. That sounds rather despicable.

However, I suspect that your reasoning is the reverse of this. It seems like you have decided that God is despicable therefore he did not give people free will.
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Amusing but misses reality. There is no god and the Universe works at random.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
And the sad? amazing? amusing? thing is that Epicurus figured this out over 2000 years ago and idiots have been missing the point ever since.
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The most common out I see from apologist is to grasp the second horn of this...tetralemma? and suggest that the evil that exists in the world is, in fact, just the condign amount of evil we deserve.

The next most common is to grasp the first horn and say that God does everything He can to prevent evil, but is helpless against the iron chariots of human free will, so we shouldn't hold the evil that happens against Him.

The *next* most common is No True Evil.

There are others, and mixed forms of the above. Apologetics may not be very cogent or convincing, but it *is* inventive, or at least, prolific.
 
bruto said:
Not quite.

My assumption is that an all-powerful god of the Jehovah sort, a creator who is, as many Bible followers claim, omni-everything, would be, at the moment of creation, eternal and all knowing, and thus essentially deterministic in a way that (because he's God and knows everything) excludes free will, unless he makes it a precondition of a particular item of creation. But he could endow people with free will at any time. He's God, for God's sake! But whether baked in or given later, I think in inherently contains a promise of "hands off" in life. Expulsions from the garden, floods, suspension of physical law, miracles, etc. all serve to remind us that we're only as free as the invisible hand on the helm wants us to be.

Although it's head of a pin sophistry to argue whether God can create a stone too heavy to lift, I think he can make a promise that is close enough to one he cannot break. Whether he couldn't or wouldn't, an honest god would not break a promise, so if he promised to give us free will, there we'd be. And if we get to hell and say "why didn't you stop me?" he can say "what do you think 'free' means?"

I could hardly think that God is despicable, since I don't think there is one anyway, but I think if there were a God of the sort usually meant when that word is used, he'd probably be just fine. And assuming that god made a world with some purpose other than just looking at himself in the mirror and knowing what's there anyway, I think free will would be an essential ingredient. I just don't think such a god is the one described in the Bible and worshiped by most churches. That one meddles.
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You are starting to remind me of that poster who thinks "free will" means freedom from all suffering. You are deliberately so all over the place that it is impossible to tell what you truly believe. Your rules change from sentence to sentence.

Whatever the "true" nature of the God described in the bible, you have failed to demonstrate that the bible says God did not create people with free will (or did). "Meddling" has nothing to do with free will.
 
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