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Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

Michel H said:
Do you think wikipedia is lying too? :

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation)

Some terrible things have happened, but Russia is democratic nevertheless, because it has significant elections. I don't claim to be an expert on Russia, but I think that, if you want to run for an election in Russia, you should be careful: don't look like a "traitor", don't side with foreigners too much, do not receive money from abroad, try to be polite and respectful with the current president.

In November 2016, Hillary Clinton received about 66 million votes, while Trump received about 63 million. And yet it was Trump who was elected.

How democratic is that? My answer: not democratic, the U.S. has an obsolete constitution, but is too conceited and pretentious to modernize and improve it. They prefer keeping themselves busy by constantly attacking Russia and China. This does look so much more exciting, doesn't it?

According to the latest news I have seen, Ukraine is not winning, and is not about to take back Crimea. If they do, then they are probably conquerors themselves who ignore the wishes of the local population.
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Russia is democratic like my dick gives milk. :rolleyes:
 
Michel H said:
You might also say: "Obviously, Chancellor Adolf Hitler did not attack the Soviet Union in 1941 for no reason".
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I might if I was an idiot who thought Barbarossa was a fine idea. You're now comparing the violent invasion of another country to the imposition of sanctions trying to halt the violent invasion of another country. Do you see those as moral equivalents? You already said Germany should have pretended not to notice Russia invading Ukraine in the hope that Russia would leave Germany alone. Do you see that as a viable strategy for anyone's peace and security? I sure don't.

Many sanctions were imposed on Russia (and Crimea) after the 2014 annexation of Crimea, which was a mostly respectable democratic process.
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Many countries do not endorse the principle of large countries snapping up desirable parts of smaller neighbouring countries. Crimea had not voted to be grabbed by Russia before it was grabbed by Russia. If a woman was required to marry her rapist would you endorse the wedding ceremony as "mostly respectable"?
 
We don't know what the people of Crimea want because the only data we have came after the Russian invasion and occupation.
 
Michel H said:
Russia isn't responsible for the fact that about 30% of Ukrainian are native Russian speakers, and for the fact that the Ukrainian government has adopted some controversial policies to try to favor the use of the Ukrainian language.
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They absolutely are responsible for the first fact. Until Ukraine's independence, Russia had policies of Russification going on for centuries. You complain about the Ukrainisation of Ukraine as if it's some kind of evil but what happens the moment Russia comes in and takes control of parts of Ukraine? That's right - straight back to the Russification of the region.

In my opinion, the best policy for Ukraine is to try to have good relations with all its neighbors (something France and Germany managed to do after three deadly conflicts), stop impose specific language use, and buy cheap Russian energy products (gas and oil).
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"Good relations with all its neighbours" to you is just "bow down to the bully". And what happens with the bully doesn't like the good relations Ukraine has with certain neighbours? Should Ukraine just break those and have bad relations with those countries simply because Russia will bully them into it?
 
dudalb said:
Russia is democratic in the same way the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea is democratic.
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This doesn't seem to be a good comparison, the people of North Korea do not elect their leader (currently Kim Jong-un).

Regarding democracy in Russia, the Wilson Center has an interesting publication:
Putin and the Russian Tradition: Illiberal but Democratic?
...
While the speakers acknowledged that President Vladimir Putin had instituted a number of illiberal policies, they argued that he is a democratically elected leader and that his policies reflect the real wishes of the majority of the Russian people.
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(written in 2006, https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/putin-and-the-russian-tradition-illiberal-democratic)
 
Craig4 said:
2006 huh?
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If you want something more recent, I can perhaps quote statista.com:
In June 2022, over 80 percent of Russians approved of activities of the Russian President Vladimir Putin. The popularity level saw an increase during the Russian invasion of Ukraine that started at the end of February 2022.
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(https://www.statista.com/statistics/896181/putin-approval-rating-russia/).

Putin is enjoying approval ratings which are much higher than his U.S. colleague: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/.
 
I don't care what polls from a country run by thugs without free media and where dissidents disappear say. Poll data isn't reliable when dissent sends you to a prison camp. Don't act like a poll done in Russia is as valid as one done in a legitimate country.
 
Wildy said:
"Good relations with all its neighbours" to you is just "bow down to the bully". And what happens with the bully doesn't like the good relations Ukraine has with certain neighbours? Should Ukraine just break those and have bad relations with those countries simply because Russia will bully them into it?
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Ukraine can have excellent relations with European Union countries (Germany, France, Italy, and many others) without necessarily being a member of an organization which seems to be obsessed with "sanctioning" Russia.

I don't think Russia would object to that.

Similarly, there is nothing wrong about Ukraine having good relations with the U.S., as long as these relations are not used to plot against Russia.
 
Craig4 said:
I don't care what polls from a country run by thugs without free media and where dissidents disappear say. Poll data isn't reliable when dissent sends you to a prison camp. Don't act like a poll done in Russia is as valid as one done in a legitimate country.
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The Guardian (a well known British newspaper) wrote, on 9 May 2022:
Just as in 2014, there has been a rise in the approval rating of the operation and its commander in chief. Once again, Putin is polling at above 80%, 12 points higher than in February. The government and prime minister are also polling well. Even the state Duma, which normally languishes in negative territory, is basking in positive ratings.
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(https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-high-ratings-but-russians-are-terrified-too).
 
Michel H said:
Ukraine can have excellent relations with European Union countries (Germany, France, Italy, and many others) without necessarily being a member of an organization which seems to be obsessed with "sanctioning" Russia.

I don't think Russia would object to that.

Similarly, there is nothing wrong about Ukraine having good relations with the U.S., as long as these relations are not used to plot against Russia.
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Why should Ukraine care whether Russia objects? Oh, wait, I know the answer. Because Russia will invade otherwise.
 
Craig4 said:
Another poll taken in a country that crushes dissent. So what? It came out of Russia so it can't be trusted.
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Obviously, you won't be able to find Putin's approval rating in Russia by interviewing people in London.

But the professional journalists of the Guardian make sure they use reliable and trusted sources, it's part of their job.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I might if I was an idiot who thought Barbarossa was a fine idea. You're now comparing the violent invasion of another country to the imposition of sanctions trying to halt the violent invasion of another country. Do you see those as moral equivalents? You already said Germany should have pretended not to notice Russia invading Ukraine in the hope that Russia would leave Germany alone. Do you see that as a viable strategy for anyone's peace and security? I sure don't.


Many countries do not endorse the principle of large countries snapping up desirable parts of smaller neighbouring countries. Crimea had not voted to be grabbed by Russia before it was grabbed by Russia.
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The 2014 Crimean status referendum was held on March 16, 2014.

The next day after the referendum, the parliament of Crimea asked the Russian Federation "to admit the Republic of Crimea as a new subject with the status of a republic".[218] Later on the same day, March 17, Putin issued a decree formally recognizing Crimea as an independent state.[219] On March 18, the Russian, Crimean, and Sevastopolian leadership signed the Treaty on Accession of the Republic of Crimea to Russia,[220] which was ratified by the Russian Federal Assembly on March 21.[221] A transition period was in force for integrating Crimean governmental institutions, ending on January 1, 2015.
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(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Aftermath)

So, Crimea wasn't part of Russia when the referendum took place.

Regarding a possible comparison between Operation Barbarossa (the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany, which started on 22 June 1941), and the imposition of heavy sanctions by Ukraine and its Western accomplices on Russia after the (mostly) democratic process of Crimea joining Russia, I would say that the former crime is still much worse than the latter.
 
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