Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[Cainkane1]

Lately in the news I've read about Trans Men in womens prisons getting their female fellow prisoners pregnant. Strange things happen between men and women in prison. I was watching a show on Jerry Springer where a black female guard got pregnant by a white skinhead in prison. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls.

 

[Rolfe]

I know the terminology is difficult and I sympathise with the inclination to use the term Trans men for men who identify as trans, but the fact is, transmen these days means women who have cut their breasts off and take testosterone. They're not going to get anyone pregnant, although they sometimes become pregnant themselves.

This article is very relevant to the problem of men who say they're trans being sent to female prisons.

Female Inmates Speak Out On Prison Pregnancies, Reveal Other Trans Inmates Were Penalized for Sexual Activity

The agreement between the ACLU and the New Jersey Department of Corrections to house transgender inmates according to their self-declared gender identity, instead of their biological sex assigned at birth, has led to 27 men, many of them violent killers, being transferred into the women’s facility.

 

[shuttlt]

Lately in the news I've read about Trans Men in womens prisons getting their female fellow prisoners pregnant. Strange things happen between men and women in prison. I was watching a show on Jerry Springer where a black female guard got pregnant by a white skinhead in prison. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls.

Crazy how many trans women turn out to be lesbians.

 

[smartcooky]

I understand your point but I am still wondering how many trans-women would want to become top/world-class women athletes? The reason I am wondering is that the actual number of trans folk seems to be very small (as a percentage of the population) yet we do seem to be seeing quite a few competing or trying to compete in top women's sporting events. Is it in proportion to the number of trans-women in the population? Or do they seek such competition disproportionately to their percentage in the population? Or is that we are sensitised to these stories - like when you buy a red car and you start to see a lot "more" red cars on the roads when it is just you are noticing the red cars more?

I know it's neither here nor there in regards to allowing trans-women to compete in women's sports but I think it could be an interesting line of study.

There are some athletes with little or no moral code, who are quite prepared to go to great lengths to cheat-to-win, for example, Lance Armstrong, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Ben Johnson, by taking the risk of using performance enhancing drugs. Many of those drugs can significantly shorten their lives, but they take that risk anyway. Given that a man has to do nothing more than simply say he identifies as a woman (a completely risk-free process) to be accepted as a transwoman, what on earth makes you think there wouldn't be any of the same types of immoral male sportsmen, who would fake being transgender to win?

 

[Brainster]

I understand your point but I am still wondering how many trans-women would want to become top/world-class women athletes? The reason I am wondering is that the actual number of trans folk seems to be very small (as a percentage of the population) yet we do seem to be seeing quite a few competing or trying to compete in top women's sporting events. Is it in proportion to the number of trans-women in the population? Or do they seek such competition disproportionately to their percentage in the population? Or is that we are sensitised to these stories - like when you buy a red car and you start to see a lot "more" red cars on the roads when it is just you are noticing the red cars more?

The question more appropriately is how many men would want to become top/world class women athletes. And the answer is that it really depends on the sport. Nobody who could play in the NBA is going to want to play in the WNBA, for example, because the money in the NBA is probably better for scrubs than it is for stars in the WNBA. But that does not apply to all sports; top women tennis pros make lots of money, as do top women golfers. And in track and field, a lot of men could get Olympic gold medals in the women's categories, and Olympic gold medals are generally worth quite a bit in endorsements.

Seriously, if you took five men who were ranked in the top 1000* in tennis and gave them wigs and called them women, no real woman would win a tournament ever. The guys would take turns. I was an okay tennis player, never made the boys/men's team in high school or college, but whenever I played any of the women, even the top ones, they were helpless on the court against me. Because of my size (6'2") I could go from side to side in a couple of steps and they needed five or six. I actually felt sorry for them but they wanted me to push them because they at least had a chance on any given point against me unlike the guys on the men's team. The coach of course would be yelling that I was running around my backhand (guilty), but it didn't matter much when my forehand could knock the racquet out of their hands.

*ETA just to clarify I would never have been ranked in the top 1000 so I am not including myself in that group. I played against a lot of guys who were also not in the top 1000 and they waxed me.

 

[smartcooky]

The question more appropriately is how many men would want to become top/world class women athletes. And the answer is that it really depends on the sport. Nobody who could play in the NBA is going to want to play in the WNBA, for example, because the money in the NBA is probably better for scrubs than it is for stars in the WNBA. But that does not apply to all sports; top women tennis pros make lots of money, as do top women golfers. And in track and field, a lot of men could get Olympic gold medals in the women's categories, and Olympic gold medals are generally worth quite a bit in endorsements.

Seriously, if you took five men who were ranked in the top 1000* in tennis and gave them wigs and called them women, no real woman would win a tournament ever. The guys would take turns. I was an okay tennis player, never made the boys/men's team in high school or college, but whenever I played any of the women, even the top ones, they were helpless on the court against me. Because of my size (6'2") I could go from side to side in a couple of steps and they needed five or six. I actually felt sorry for them but they wanted me to push them because they at least had a chance on any given point against me unlike the guys on the men's team. The coach of course would be yelling that I was running around my backhand (guilty), but it didn't matter much when my forehand could knock the racquet out of their hands.

*ETA just to clarify I would never have been ranked in the top 1000 so I am not including myself in that group. I played against a lot of guys who were also not in the top 1000 and they waxed me.

You would also outreach them... by a lot, so you could far more easily pass them on either hand than they could pass you.

 

[Darat]

There are some athletes with little or no moral code, who are quite prepared to go to great lengths to cheat-to-win, for example, Lance Armstrong, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Ben Johnson, by taking the risk of using performance enhancing drugs. Many of those drugs can significantly shorten their lives, but they take that risk anyway. Given that a man has to do nothing more than simply say he identifies as a woman (a completely risk-free process) to be accepted as a transwoman, what on earth makes you think there wouldn't be any of the same types of immoral male sportsmen, who would fake being transgender to win?

That doesn't seem to be the case - as can be seen by the huge amount of debate caused by various national and international sport organisations struggling with their criteria for who is allowed to compete in their female competitions.

We had this example just a little while back in the thread:

Getting things back to the subject of the thread, transgender women will no longer be allowed to play in female contact rugby competitions in England due to safety and fairness concerns, under new recommendations from the Rugby Football Union to be voted on next Friday.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...n-banning-transgender-women-from-womens-rugby

 

[lionking]

That doesn't seem to be the case - as can be seen by the huge amount of debate caused by various national and international sport organisations struggling with their criteria for who is allowed to compete in their female competitions.

This is a very recent development and not widespread. Lia Thomas may not compete in the next Olympics, but he is competing in women's events in NCAA, which is an elite competition.

 

[Darat]

The question more appropriately is how many men would want to become top/world class women athletes.

...snip...

No that's a different question to what I asked - I was asking about trans-women, which even if you want to describe them as men are a distinct sub-grouping of men.

I presume from your post that you are not a trans woman (correct me if you are of course) and are a man (again correct me if you aren't) yet you didn't don - as you put it - a wig and claim to be a girl so you could win the top place in the girl's events, did you?

 

[lionking]

No that's a different question to what I asked - I was asking about trans-women, which even if you want to describe them as men are a distinct sub-grouping of men.

I presume from your post that you are not a trans woman (correct me if you are of course) and are a man (again correct me if you aren't) yet you didn't don - as you put it - a wig and claim to be a girl so you could win the top place in the girl's events, did you?

More nonsense.

 

[Darat]

This is a very recent development and not widespread. Lia Thomas may not compete in the next Olympics, but he is competing in women's events in NCAA, which is an elite competition.

It doesn't seem like she can, she had been but no longer will be able to.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/fi...wimmers-in-elite-womens-events-181115435.html

"...Swimming's world governing body voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in women's events ..."​

...It also restricts NCAA swimmers since the organization said in January it would defer to the national and international bodies' rulings....​

(That was the latest article I saw when I searched for the criteria swimming organizations are applying - if it's been overturned or something so be it.)

 

[Darat]

More nonsense.

What is the nonsense?

That trans-women are a sub-group of men? Isn't that your position? You use "he" for someone who wants to be known as "she" so I would have thought that was your position.

That Brainster didn't don a wig to win the top place in girl's tennis competitions at school?

 

[shuttlt]

If there is one thing elite athletes are known for, it is their reluctance to do what ever it takes to get an advantage and the absence of cases where they broke the spirit of the rules to win. I mean, sure most of them dedicate the best years of their lives to chasing a prize they ultimately discover they have no chance of winning, and sure byzantine drug testing regimes have to be put in place to stop them doping, they try to hide motors in their bikes, pretend to be mentally disabled etc. etc. etc.... but the idea that they would just register for an easier category where they could win much more easily while being hailed as heroic and getting sponsorship just for doing it is ridiculous.

 

[Darat]

It's interesting to see how many sporting organisations have altered or probably more accurately for the first time adopted policies that consider transgenderism since the first iteration of this thread.

Thankfully it does seem that rationality is winning out.

 

[Darat]

If there is one thing elite athletes are known for, it is their reluctance to do what ever it takes to get an advantage and the absence of cases where they broke the spirit of the rules to win. I mean, sure most of them dedicate the best years of their lives to chasing a prize they ultimately discover they have no chance of winning, and sure byzantine drug testing regimes have to be put in place to stop them doping, they try to hide motors in their bikes, pretend to be mentally disabled etc. etc. etc.... but the idea that they would just register for an easier category where they could win much more easily while being hailed as heroic and getting sponsorship just for doing it is ridiculous.

I think you need to consider your position - I would have said that there is a lot of evidence that people will cheat when they can - especially when the potential stakes are high whether personally or financially. Can't see why sportspeople would be different.

 

[Matthew Best]

That’s what he said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Darat]

That’s what he said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No they said the opposite:

"...but the idea that they would just register for an easier category where they could win much more easily while being hailed as heroic and getting sponsorship just for doing it is ridiculous...."


Perhaps some folk are being sarcastic....

 

[lionking]

What is the nonsense?

That trans-women are a sub-group of men? Isn't that your position? You use "he" for someone who wants to be known as "she" so I would have thought that was your position.

That Brainster didn't don a wig to win the top place in girl's tennis competitions at school?

As I have said before, the day Lia Thomas becomes a member of this forum I will use Lia’s preferred pronoun, until then he can **** himself.

 

[Darat]

As I have said before, the day Lia Thomas becomes a member of this forum I will use Lia’s preferred pronoun, until then he can **** himself.

Any chance you could actually answer a post of mine you quote?

 

[Rolfe]

We seem to be back to the LondonJohn argument. How dare you point out that "transwomen" are a subset of men, that is a morally repugnant position and I'm surprised anyone would own up to it in public.

For crying out loud, this is a sceptics forum. We're supposed to be grounded in physical reality and debating from a logical standpoint. In actual physical reality transwomen are men and it is logical to consider them as such in discussions such as this.