The Russian Invasion of Ukraine Part 4

[SpitfireIX]

Taking out high value targets a long way away - so far only 4 HIMARS vehicles have been provided.

Actually, eight have been delivered, with four more on the way, plus three M270s delivered, with a further three to be delivered from Germany later this year.

That's beside the point, though, because NATO and allied countries have delivered about 300 155mm guns, both towed and self-propelled, which are what would be used to attack fortified positions, if necessary.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Just to remind you, the fortified positions of the Ukrops have developed over eight years.

 

[The Don]

Actually, eight have been delivered, with four more on the way, plus three M270s delivered, with a further three to be delivered from Germany later this year.

That's beside the point, though, because NATO and allied countries have delivered about 300 155mm guns, both towed and self-propelled, which are what would be used to attack fortified positions, if necessary.

Exactly, the missiles for long range, high value targets - conventional artillery for pounding defences to rubble.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Taking out high value targets a long way away - so far only 4 HIMARS vehicles have been provided.

More are being provided and coming in to service as crews are trained and the support is in place. MLRS are also coming in to service.

If you are launching an offensive and there are strong points you want to neutralise they become the high value targets.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Just to remind you, the fortified positions of the Ukrops have developed over eight years.

What good will they be if they are bypassed?

What good will they be without any forces to defend them?

When the Russian front collapses it will be rapid and complete.

 

[The Don]

Just to remind you, the fortified positions of the Ukrops have developed over eight years.

True.

It seems that it's most likely that any Ukrainian counter-offensive would come in the South where Russian forces are spread more thinly, where public support for Russia is less, where there's been less time to prepare defensive positions and where the benefits, both in terms of cutting Russian supply lines and securing access to the Black Sea are greatest.

I would anticipate that attempting to take on the pro-Russian forces in the East or recapturing Crimea would only follow if the other counter-offensives do wall.

 

[Childlike Empress]

What good will they be if they are bypassed?

What good will they be without any forces to defend them?

When the Russian front collapses it will be rapid and complete.

The Ukrainian front,

Edited by xjx388: 

<SNIP>Please use full usernames and do not change them for rhetorical effect

. It's the Ukrainian front that is collapsing, despite your wishful thinking (I have no idea why, btw).

 

[Childlike Empress]

True.

It seems that it's most likely that any Ukrainian counter-offensive would come in the South where Russian forces are spread more thinly, where public support for Russia is less, where there's been less time to prepare defensive positions and where the benefits, both in terms of cutting Russian supply lines and securing access to the Black Sea are greatest.

I would anticipate that attempting to take on the pro-Russian forces in the East or recapturing Crimea would only follow if the other counter-offensives do wall.

There will be no Ukrainian counter-offensive. It is essentially over already. As Putin said, they haven't even started yet (paraphrasing). I lurk in your thread and I admire your intention, but these people will stay with you for a long time. The Ukraine is toast.

 

[Cainkane1]

Europe and America and Brazil are supplying weapons to the Ukrainians. These weapons are making hash out of Russians tanks and planes. Brazilian tanks are out performing Russian tanks as they are considered the best tanks in the world out performing even Americas Abrams tank. Brazil is also providing small arms such as but not limited to heavy machine guns. Various countries are gifting weapons to the Ukranians to see how they perform in real combat roles. The Ukrain seems to be holding its own quite frankly.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The Ukrainian front, Käpt'n. It's the Ukrainian front that is collapsing, despite your wishful thinking (I have no idea why, btw).

What is your evidence for this collapse?

 

[Andy_Ross]

There will be no Ukrainian counter-offensive. It is essentially over already. As Putin said, they haven't even started yet (paraphrasing). I lurk in your thread and I admire your intention, but these people will stay with you for a long time. The Ukraine is toast.

What is your evidence for this?
What can Russia bring to the fight that they haven't already put in?
If they can put more in why haven't they done it yet?
Why would they allow themselves to be constantly humiliated?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Europe and America and Brazil are supplying weapons to the Ukrainians. These weapons are making hash out of Russians tanks and planes. Brazilian tanks are out performing Russian tanks as they are considered the best tanks in the world out performing even Americas Abrams tank. Brazil is also providing small arms such as but not limited to heavy machine guns. Various countries are gifting weapons to the Ukranians to see how they perform in real combat roles. The Ukrain seems to be holding its own quite frankly.

May I ask what you are talking about here? Have I missed something

 

[jimbob]

Europe and America and Brazil are supplying weapons to the Ukrainians. These weapons are making hash out of Russians tanks and planes. Brazilian tanks are out performing Russian tanks as they are considered the best tanks in the world out performing even Americas Abrams tank. Brazil is also providing small arms such as but not limited to heavy machine guns. Various countries are gifting weapons to the Ukranians to see how they perform in real combat roles. The Ukrain seems to be holding its own quite frankly.

What is your source for the claims about Brazil sending military aid to Ukraine, please?

 

[The Don]

There will be no Ukrainian counter-offensive. It is essentially over already.

I disagree, I think there will be one and it will be almost exclusively be based on NATO compatible weapons. Whether it will be successful is another matter entirely.

What success comprises is also a matter for debate.

As Putin said, they haven't even started yet (paraphrasing).

Yes he did say that, but Russian conventional forces have been shown to be a bit of a paper tiger.

Weapons of Mass Destruction aside, I'm at a bit of a loss to know what more Russia has to throw at Ukraine. Yes, they have a huge reserve (of largely obsolete) equipment, but they seem short of men to man it.

The current Russian attempts to recruit seem almost desperate, not least because the pool of young recruits is particularly small due to considerable demographic challenges.

I lurk in your thread and I admire your intention, but these people will stay with you for a long time. The Ukraine is toast.

Don't get me wrong, I think that many contributors to this thread are far too optimistic about Ukraine's prospects or, more accurately, how quickly Ukraine can turn things around.

OTOH anyone in this thread who think that Russians are being welcomed as liberators, that Russia will suddenly become excellent at a war or movement, that Poland is seeking to partition Ukraine or any of the other fantasies coming out of Russia's Propaganda firehose is seriously mistaken.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

What is your evidence for this?

The Russian MoD et al say it.
CE believes it.
That settles it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Europe and America and Brazil are supplying weapons to the Ukrainians. These weapons are making hash out of Russians tanks and planes. Brazilian tanks are out performing Russian tanks as they are considered the best tanks in the world out performing even Americas Abrams tank. Brazil is also providing small arms such as but not limited to heavy machine guns. Various countries are gifting weapons to the Ukranians to see how they perform in real combat roles. The Ukrain seems to be holding its own quite frankly.

Which Brazilian tanks would they be?
Brazil has old Leopard 1A5s from the 1980s and a dozen or so even older M60s.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

There will be no Ukrainian counter-offensive. It is essentially over already. As Putin said, they haven't even started yet (paraphrasing). I lurk in your thread and I admire your intention, but these people will stay with you for a long time. The Ukraine is toast.

It is essentially over. Yet there is apparently the need to point out that they have not started in earnest yet.

Makes sense.

 

[The Don]

May I ask what you are talking about here? Have I missed something

What is your source for the claims about Brazil sending military aid to Ukraine, please?

Quite the opposite AFAIK.

Brazil has been very critical of US aid to Ukraine and has been careful to remain neutral.

Brazil did provide a little food aid, but nothing substantial

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is essentially over. Yet there is apparently the need to point out that they have not started in earnest yet.

Makes sense.

In a way it is already over. It's just a matter of how many people the Russians can murder before they retreat.

 

[theprestige]

Ironically the Russians have been trying make a tank that improves on the M60 Patton for fifty years. A platoon of upgraded M60s could probably hold its own against a platoon of T-90s.