Split Thread Akron police shoot unarmed man 60 times

[Warp12]

And this is my main point.

Look, I have disclosed I worked for a large police force and sat on Force Command (which met twice daily) for 8 years. I am absolutely familiar with the “better to be tried by 12 than carried by 4” ethos. I am not a knee jerk “blame the police” merchant.

But to me this is one of the most egregious cases of police overreaction I’ve seen. Again to repeat myself, a high speed pursuit over a licence irregularity should not have happened. When the car stopped, attempts to de-escalate the event should have occurred, to the extent of letting the deceased simply run away rather than execute him. The scale of the shooting points to (possibly racist) bloodlust. It was disgraceful policing.

Ok, fair enough.

Except I think they did get to a point, while likely following procedure, where they had reasonable concern for their safety. I also do not think the suggestion that it was racially-motivated is supported. Aside from the general lack of evidence, one of the officers was also black.

I think there is a delineation between "bad training and procedure", and "evil racist cop who should be prosecuted to the full extent". There is the issue of police reform, vs the issue of bad individual officers.

I know this seems a small issue, but I would be looking at simple procedural matters like why were 8 cops involved to begin with?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Adorably naive.

I don't know how police are trained in Australia, but I can tell you than in this country (at least in the AOS, but probably across all branches) and very likely in the USA as well, the mantra as regards dealing with a suspect is that if it has been established that the suspect is armed, the presumption will remain that the suspect is armed until or unless there is clear evidence that the suspect has either been disarmed, or disposed of the weapon they were carrying and is no longer armed.

This is why, when there is a crime such as an armed robbery, the public are warned that the suspect(s) are considered armed and dangerous. If Police find him, they too will consider him to be armed and dangerous, even if they do not see a weapon.


ETA: For example

https://kogt.com/man-considered-armed-and-dangerous/

"Timothy Claypool should be considered armed and dangerous; no attempt should be made to detain him. Police should be notified immediately if his location is known."​

Now, the police do not know if he still has a gun, but his previous status means he will be "considered armed and dangerous" until such time as they know he is not. This is pretty standard with ALL police worldwide... even in Australia and the UK

Considered armed and dangerous doesn't mean empty your gun in to him just in case.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I am no cop apologist but the cops certainly had reason to be;Ive he was armed. It would have been strange if they had assumed him not to be armed, given that he had immediately before exiting the car shot a gun.

Still, there was no reason to have shot him even once, much less 60 times. The cops were never in danger and it was not reasonable for them to have believed they were in danger at any point after the victim left the car.

It isn't established he shot a gun at any time. It certainly doesn't look like it from the video.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ok, fair enough.

Except I think they did get to a point, while likely following procedure, where they had reasonable concern for their safety. I also do not think the suggestion that it was racially-motivated is supported. Aside from the general lack of evidence, one of the officers was also black.

I think there is a delineation between "bad training and procedure", and "evil racist cop who should be prosecuted to the full extent". There is the issue of police reform, vs the issue of bad individual officers.

I know this seems a small issue, but I would be looking at simple procedural matters like why were 8 cops involved to begin with?

8 cops were involved because they all wanted to be in on the kill.//

 

[Warp12]

8 cops were involved because they all wanted to be in on the kill.//

 

[Andy_Ross]

How would they be able to pump so many bullets in to him in a reasonable time if there had been fewer of them?

 

[lionking]

Ok, fair enough.

Except I think they did get to a point, while likely following procedure, where they had reasonable concern for their safety. I also do not think the suggestion that it was racially-motivated is supported. Aside from the general lack of evidence, one of the officers was also black.

I think there is a delineation between "bad training and procedure", and "evil racist cop who should be prosecuted to the full extent". There is the issue of police reform, vs the issue of bad individual officers.
I know this seems a small issue, but I would be looking at simple procedural matters like why were 8 cops involved to begin with?

And I have been constantly been posting about this. That there are hundreds if not thousands of US police forces with different recruitment, training, command and resourcing procedures leads to poor policing. Full stop.

Change the way policing works in the US, and you will see fewer incidents like this.

 

[smartcooky]

No way that is a shot fired inside the car

Certainly looks like a muzzle flash to me

No way a shot fired inside a car racing down the road was heard inside another car racing down the road.

Many times, I have been in my 4WD, driving up forest road firebreaks in the Waiwhero Forest (a very noisy environment) and clearly heard the sounds of shots being fired in the forest, over 300 metres away -so I disagree with you on a point of extensive personal experience. In short, you are wrong!

Cops are liars

Just your opinion, therefore irrelevant.

There was no shot at the cops

I disagree.

Glad you aren't a cop

Just your opinion, therefore irrelevant.

Their local police union has said it believes the officers acted in line with their training. That there is the problme.
Who the **** is training them?

No reasonable person could be expected to conclude that the suspect was unarmed after he had clearly fired at them - and I am 100% satisfied that they are telling the truth on this specific aspect.

Besides which, there is a lot more to be angry about in this incident than whether or not the suspect fired at the cops - like why they were even trying to pull him over in the first place and why they felt it necessary to shoot him 60 times, still pumping bullets into him after he was already down. THESE are the important issues that need to be addressed.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Certainly looks like a muzzle flash to me

.

bollocks

 

[smartcooky]

bollocks in my opinion

FTFY

 

[Planigale]

The video I have seen is not very detailed, but I cannot make out a hand and gun sticking out of the window. To fire at the pursuing police in the car behind him would be quite awkward whilst driving? I do not know if he was right or left handed, nor whether that gun can easily be used left handed, e.g. safety, ejecting magazine. Even if a gun was fired out of the window it is not the same as saying that he targeted the police.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Don't forget, after he fired that shot he removed the magazine and cleared the weapon leaving it unloaded before he stopped the car and got out.

 

[Doubt]

Went back and watched the video footage.

I cannot tell from the bodycam and security cam if a gun was fired or not. If you are certain one way or another I think you might be projecting personal views into the argument.

The police do have body cams but the cars don't have dash cams in Akron. Dash cams have been around a lot longer. Dash cam footage would likely be better for showing what actually happened.

Then we have the general weirdness of the gun being unloaded and left behind with a ring. Add to that the ski mask being worn.

Shot or no shot, shooting somebody running away who is not trying to kill you still looks bad. We already have seen a tendency of cops to shoot people who are not representing an actual threat based on split second decisions. That leads to people with cell phones and empty hands getting shot. Or even unarmed men in broad daylight getting shot without any threat being present.

As long as we permit cops to shoot before a threat is present we will get lots of unarmed people getting shot. In this case, a man was running away and got shot based on less that certain evidence of past actions.

 

[Thermal]

Went back and watched the video footage.

I cannot tell from the bodycam and security cam if a gun was fired or not. If you are certain one way or another I think you might be projecting personal views into the argument.

The police do have body cams but the cars don't have dash cams in Akron. Dash cams have been around a lot longer. Dash cam footage would likely be better for showing what actually happened.

Then we have the general weirdness of the gun being unloaded and left behind with a ring. Add to that the ski mask being worn.
Shot or no shot, shooting somebody running away who is not trying to kill you still looks bad. We already have seen a tendency of cops to shoot people who are not representing an actual threat based on split second decisions. That leads to people with cell phones and empty hands getting shot. Or even unarmed men in broad daylight getting shot without any threat being present.

As long as we permit cops to shoot before a threat is present we will get lots of unarmed people getting shot. In this case, a man was running away and got shot based on less that certain evidence of past actions.

Not really weird. It indicates that he was going to, or had just committed, a crime. Ski mask to conceal face. Remove ring to make one less identifying detail if hands are caught on video or by witnesses. Gun to encourage cooperation. Bullets because the encouragement is sincere.

A bad guy seeing the red and blues come on will try to unload the gun, believing that being caught with an unloaded gun is a lesser crime. So he needs to drop the mag, then clear the chamber. Driving while being chased might have proven too dicey to clear it using two hands, so he makes the bad decision to fire it to clear the round (perhaps hoping it doesn't get noticed in the fracas).

 

[Andy_Ross]

Not really weird. It indicates that he was going to, or had just committed, a crime. Ski mask to conceal face. Remove ring to make one less identifying detail if hands are caught on video or by witnesses. Gun to encourage cooperation. Bullets because the encouragement is sincere.

A bad guy seeing the red and blues come on will try to unload the gun, believing that being caught with an unloaded gun is a lesser crime. So he needs to drop the mag, then clear the chamber. Driving while being chased might have proven too dicey to clear it using two hands, so he makes the bad decision to fire it to clear the round (perhaps hoping it doesn't get noticed in the fracas).

then you woke up

 

[Thermal]

then you woke up

You have a more plausible explanation? Let's hear it.

He was skiing...in Ohio...in July? While getting divorced? A summer ski slope divorce ceremony, ending with a target shooting match! You so smart.

 

[sarge]

It isn't established he shot a gun at any time. It certainly doesn't look like it from the video.

It does look like he shot a gun from the video and it is more likely than not that the 7 other cops that heard a cop during the pursuit say ‘shots fired’ and saw the flash and heard a bang reasonably believed he had fired a shot. And yes, you absolutely can hear a handgun being fired from a vehicle in close pursuit.

While there appears to be no justification for shooting the victim, it is entirely reasonable considering only what has been reported so far to acknowledge the cops had reason to believe the victim was armed when he turned to face them

 

[Blue Mountain]

And I have been constantly been posting about this. That there are hundreds if not thousands of US police forces with different recruitment, training, command and resourcing procedures leads to poor policing. Full stop.

Change the way policing works in the US, and you will see fewer incidents like this.

We have a very similar situation in Canada. While the RCMP is a national police force, as far as I know every community that's incorporated as a city has its own police, and they all do their own training. Yes, there are (in my opinion) too many instances of police opening fire on citizens, but they don't seem to be nearly as trigger-happy as their US counterparts.

One could argue that an advantage to a bunch of local police departments is they all won't rot at the same pace.

 

[Blue Mountain]

It does look like he shot a gun from the video and it is more likely than not that the 7 other cops that heard a cop during the pursuit say ‘shots fired’ and saw the flash and heard a bang reasonably believed he had fired a shot. And yes, you absolutely can hear a handgun being fired from a vehicle in close pursuit.

While there appears to be no justification for shooting the victim, it is entirely reasonable considering only what has been reported so far to acknowledge the cops had reason to believe the victim was armed when he turned to face them

^ This. The police aren't omniscient. At the time, in my opinion they had good reason to believe the Jayland Walker was armed and was prepared to use his weapon.

Having said that, it should not have escalated to that point. I can't think of a good reason to engage in a high speed pursuit over such a minor violation as the one the police say he was stopped for.

Later, when he left his car and started running, certainly the police had a reason to pursue on foot. But that the moment it appeared he was drawing a weapon, in my opinion the individual officers should have scattered and taken cover (provided there was cover to be had.) Unfortunately I have no training at all in these matters; it could well be that scattering and taking cover is the worst thing to do in a situation like this.

 

[lionking]

One could argue that an advantage to a bunch of local police departments is they all won't rot at the same pace.

It is entirely possible to have local police stations which know, understand and engage with the community which are part of a united and well managed force.