Split Thread Akron police shoot unarmed man 60 times

[ponderingturtle]

As someone who was in the war-torn province of Afghanistan in the not too quiet year of 2006 I can that had we acted like American copsagainst sworn actual enemies of the US who were, without question, trying to kill us we would have been court martialed for human rights violations.

Yet torturing innocent people to death was practiced at the time and had no legal consequence. So how real is the military prohibition against this vs what the military tells themselves. They certainly had no trouble finding people to aide in torturing detainees and never charged any of them(accept those idiots in Abu Graib who let pictures of the practice get out).

I mean there was not exactly a lot of criminal fall out from the My Lai massacre. Only one person got convicted and only served 3 years in prison.

So I wonder how much of this is just conforting lies the military tells itself that they wouldn't do X. But when we find out about horrible human rights violations we regularly see the military doing nothing about it.

 

[wareyin]

So far, this is the only concrete thing I find fault with. The Chief claimed the shooters never had an opportunity to coordinate their versions of events. That is completely false. They not only had the opportunity to do so, they certainly did coordinate their stories.

That doesn’t mean they (the shooters) are lying, but it does mean this department, like virtually every other US police department, is willing to lie to protect their employees.

The US has allowed cops to become their own society, separate from and above the laws that govern the rest of us.

I also find fault with "unspecified traffic and equipment violations" leading to a high speed chase leading to shooting an unarmed suspect.

I've been pulled over for "a license plate light that was out" that miraculously worked again when the cop wasn't preventing me from exiting my vehicle. That cop could at least come up with a specific traffic/equipment violation, even if his story was false. That these guys are unable to come up with the reason they were stopping Walker in the first place kinda feels like a "driving while black" situation, although there may be an actual violation that for some unimaginable reason they're unable to state. The fact that at every step of the way police escalated the situation until an unarmed man had 60 bullet holes in him speaks very poorly of the police involved as well as their training.

 

[sarge]

I also find fault with "unspecified traffic and equipment violations" leading to a high speed chase leading to shooting an unarmed suspect.

I've been pulled over for "a license plate light that was out" that miraculously worked again when the cop wasn't preventing me from exiting my vehicle. That cop could at least come up with a specific traffic/equipment violation, even if his story was false. That these guys are unable to come up with the reason they were stopping Walker in the first place kinda feels like a "driving while black" situation, although there may be an actual violation that for some unimaginable reason they're unable to state. The fact that at every step of they way police escalated the situation until an unarmed man had 60 bullet holes in him speaks very poorly of the police involved as well as their training.

My acceptance of some reasonable perception of danger by the cops in this case shouldn’t be extended to include police policies that individual officers have no say about. I accept that there is at least (from what we know so far) some defense for cops shooting in this instance. That isn’t a blanket approval for the way cops are trained, or how we just assume they are ever telling the truth when recounting their version of events, or of their policy of initiating a high-speed chase under such conditions, or of no-knock warrants, or of any of the blindingly stupid ways we allow cops to murder citizens and get away with it.

 

[lionking]

I also find fault with "unspecified traffic and equipment violations" leading to a high speed chase leading to shooting an unarmed suspect.

I've been pulled over for "a license plate light that was out" that miraculously worked again when the cop wasn't preventing me from exiting my vehicle. That cop could at least come up with a specific traffic/equipment violation, even if his story was false. That these guys are unable to come up with the reason they were stopping Walker in the first place kinda feels like a "driving while black" situation, although there may be an actual violation that for some unimaginable reason they're unable to state. The fact that at every step of the way police escalated the situation until an unarmed man had 60 bullet holes in him speaks very poorly of the police involved as well as their training.

Absolutely.

Look, I agree that when police are under deadly threat, deadly responses are justified. But this story has as many holes in it as Walker. A traffic violation, no matter how grave, should not lead to an execution like this.

 

[sarge]

Yet torturing innocent people to death was practiced at the time and had no legal consequence. So how real is the military prohibition against this vs what the military tells themselves. They certainly had no trouble finding people to aide in torturing detainees and never charged any of them(accept those idiots in Abu Graib who let pictures of the practice get out).

I mean there was not exactly a lot of criminal fall out from the My Lai massacre. Only one person got convicted and only served 3 years in prison.

So I wonder how much of this is just conforting lies the military tells itself that they wouldn't do X. But when we find out about horrible human rights violations we regularly see the military doing nothing about it.

Yes, US Soldiers engage in atrocities. Generally, Soldiers don’t engage in systemic torture. That is either accomplished by Alphabet Soup agencies or out-sourced by them.

The US Military is reasonably good (in my personal experience) at following whatever rules of engagement they are operating under.

 

[Cain]

Re: "Police officers certainly need to be mindful of their background..."

Stop lying, they very clearly do not, as was found when that cop shot a kid because he was shooting at a non threatening dog. Nothing wrong with that behavior as the courts found...

You need to be more honnest when you talk about what police are legally required to do or free to ignore, and kids behind what they are shooting at is a free to ignore situation.

If you like, take some white-out and change "need to" to "should." A more "honnest" reader would have inferred "need" was borne out of concern for public safety, not a police officer's regard for their own self-interest.

"These umpires need to pay more attention because they're screwing up the game."
"Stop lying. They very clearly do not because the union will protect them regardless."

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, US Soldiers engage in atrocities. Generally, Soldiers don’t engage in systemic torture. That is either accomplished by Alphabet Soup agencies or out-sourced by them.

The US Military is reasonably good (in my personal experience) at following whatever rules of engagement they are operating under.

And when the rules of engagement are violated and the soldiers kill a bunch of innocent people is there the accountability that people proclaim there is, or is it just swept under the rug, like we see with the police?

The only case I can remember outside of those generated by the public outrage of seeing the abu ghraib pictures was the guy who got an immediate pardon for murdering a civilian.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Re: "Police officers certainly need to be mindful of their background..."



If you like, take some white-out and change "need to" to "should." A more "honnest" reader would have inferred "need" was borne out of concern for public safety, not a police officer's regard for their own self-interest.

"These umpires need to pay more attention because they're screwing up the game."
"Stop lying. They very clearly do not because the union will protect them regardless."

But the point is that unlike civilians defending themselves, police have no legal liability if they kill someone in the background.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

There are very clear incentives for cops not to let a suspect live once shots are fired.

 

[sarge]

And when the rules of engagement are violated and the soldiers kill a bunch of innocent people is there the accountability that people proclaim there is, or is it just swept under the rug, like we see with the police?

The only case I can remember outside of those generated by the public outrage of seeing the abu ghraib pictures was the guy who got an immediate pardon for murdering a civilian.

Start a thread if you’d like to discuss this issue.

 

[Cain]

But the point is that unlike civilians defending themselves, police have no legal liability if they kill someone in the background.

That's your point in a case that involves nobody else getting hit, or even reports of anyone in danger of getting hit?

 

[lomiller]

If lethal force was justified,

It wasn't. He had no visible weapon. and represented no visible immanent danger to anyone. This is just poorly trained gun-happy cops that could murder you or anyone else tomorrow. Don't go thinking that just because unarmed black men are 3X more like to be shot by police that unarmed white men don't get murdered as well.

 

[lionking]

That's your point in a case that involves nobody else getting hit, or even reports of anyone in danger of getting hit?

I made this point earlier on. If nobody else was around, nobody else was endangered. Chase after him, or let him run. He was hardly a criminal mastermind, so would have been found.

This was pathetic policing all round.

 

[Darat]

There are a number of well-studied psychological and physiological things that occur during the “stress of combat”.
Among these are a species of “target fixation” and also a decrease in hearing acuity.

So officers may be so intent on the “threat” that they are largely unaware of others firing, or in some cases, of orders to stop.
Add to that the adrenaline rush of chasing the suspect… And the knowledge that he was presumably armed as he had fired at the officers….
You can empty a modern semi-auto pistol in a couple of seconds.

And you can add into that - bad training.

 

[Doubt]

There are a number of well-studied psychological and physiological things that occur during the “stress of combat”.
Among these are a species of “target fixation” and also a decrease in hearing acuity.

So officers may be so intent on the “threat” that they are largely unaware of others firing, or in some cases, of orders to stop.
Add to that the adrenaline rush of chasing the suspect… And the knowledge that he was presumably armed as he had fired at the officers….
You can empty a modern semi-auto pistol in a couple of seconds.

The threat focus happens even in military training exercises with no actual stress from life or death situations.

 

[Frank Newgent]

There are a number of well-studied psychological and physiological things that occur during the “stress of combat”.
Among these are a species of “target fixation” and also a decrease in hearing acuity.

So officers may be so intent on the “threat” that they are largely unaware of others firing, or in some cases, of orders to stop.
Add to that the adrenaline rush of chasing the suspect… And the knowledge that he was presumably armed as he had fired at the officers….
You can empty a modern semi-auto pistol in a couple of seconds.

The threat focus happens even in military training exercises with no actual stress from life or death situations.

Shooting a fellow 60 times is video-game stuff, isn't it?

 

[smartcooky]

Shooting a fellow 60 times is video-game stuff, isn't it?

Hell no.

In video games its usually best to conserve ammo because you have to perform in-game tasks to earn more.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Shooting a fellow 60 times is video-game stuff, isn't it?

Hell no.

In video games its usually best to conserve ammo because you have to perform in-game tasks to earn more.

So you can later blast some minority with a shell from the roof-mounted cannon of an armored truck?

 

[Doubt]

Shooting a fellow 60 times is video-game stuff, isn't it?

That would depend on the game.

The one incident that came to mind about people not noticing what others are doing happened in ROTC summer training camp. I and another guy were at something called an LP/OP where we were the early warning system for our squad on defense. The people who were supposed to attack us came towards us from a wrong angle cutting off our retreat back to the main line. We had a plan in place for what to do if things went wrong.

The plan was to shout a running password as we ran back to the line. Everybody knew that password. It doesn't do much good if somebody isn't listening and instead is shooting at us. The guy saw and heard nothing as he looked through is sights shooting at us. The squad leader was yelling at them to cease fire. Nothing registered so he did not hear the squad leader either even though he was only ten feet away.

The guy took us out. We were wearing MILES training gear so our dead status could be heard for some distance including by the group that was about to attack. That did not go well. The rest of the world did not exist for him as he engaged what he thought was the enemy.

 

[sarge]

That would depend on the game.

The one incident that came to mind about people not noticing what others are doing happened in ROTC summer training camp. I and another guy were at something called an LP/OP where we were the early warning system for our squad on defense. The people who were supposed to attack us came towards us from a wrong angle cutting off our retreat back to the main line. We had a plan in place for what to do if things went wrong.

The plan was to shout a running password as we ran back to the line. Everybody knew that password. It doesn't do much good if somebody isn't listening and instead is shooting at us. The guy saw and heard nothing as he looked through is sights shooting at us. The squad leader was yelling at them to cease fire. Nothing registered so he did not hear the squad leader either even though he was only ten feet away.

The guy took us out. We were wearing MILES training gear so our dead status could be heard for some distance including by the group that was about to attack. That did not go well. The rest of the world did not exist for him as he engaged what he thought was the enemy.

You used MILES in ROTC Summer Camp? I gotta ask…..it was not at Bragg was it?


Training can significantly reduce the incidents of tunnel vision you are describing. The National Training Centers do an excellent job of replicating the stress of combat. Units that are able to do a rotation soon before deploying and remain largely intact through the deployment fare measurably better in combat than units that train themselves before deploying.

Police forces do not train to any meaningful level of competency for the tasks they should be good at.