• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Split Thread Akron police shoot unarmed man 60 times

Ron Obvious said:
I noticed the victim is being described as unarmed in the news headline, but that an "unloaded" gun was later found in his vehicle and that police report being fired on first.

Any or all of that may be false, of course, but I do find it interesting how he's continually described as "unarmed" in the headlines. Is a gun that's fired all its bullets "unloaded" or "empty"? I would say there's a distinction to be made here if indeed it had been fired.
Click to expand...
According to the NPR article referenced above, he was shot while he attempted to flee the vehicle on foot. If the gun was found in the car, then he was unarmed at the time of the shooting (even if he had access to the firearm before.)

I think this says so much about the state of policing in the U.S. At one point the majority might have given the benefit of the doubt to the police. (They're the professionals, they have to react quickly, etc.) But we have seem so many cases of questionable shootings, so many cases where the cops circle the wagons when one of them is accused of overstepping their bounds. We have seen the video of them pushing around BLM protesters. We have seen at least a few of them support the alt-right. Police supporters suggest the bad ones are just a 'few bad apples', but they have no interest in actually getting rid of the problem ones. So at this point, people no longer trust that the police acted appropriately.

Even if the police shot him for legitimate reasons, all of their previous abuses mean that the default will no longer be to "trust the police", but to assume "they screwed up again".
 
Lots here that does not seem to make sense with just the info we have. Waiting on details to clear this up.

1.) Cops fired 90 bullets and hit 60 times. From what has been collected from various sources about police marksmanship, it is unlikely they would hit with 60% of their rounds. They just are not that good.

2.) His gun was found unloaded. But there was a shell casing in the car. So in the middle of a chase he pulled out the magazine and cleared the weapon? Really?

3.) He was wearing a ski mask. Why? He was being pulled over for a traffic stop. So when did the mask come on? While he was driving? Before they tried to stop him? While he was running away after unloading the gun?

Maybe we are just missing details here. But the story as reported is a bit of a challenge to take at face value.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
Let’s get serious, though. Does it really matter whether someone was shot 15 times or 60 times?
Click to expand...


If lethal force was justified, which it sure seems like it was, I couldn't care less. It kinda makes me laugh thinking about it, like the death of Santino in The Godfather.
 
casebro said:
Under the conditions of a known shooter, wearing a ski mask in summer, running away? I approve of cops protecting the public by shooting him.

NOT 60 times.

I figure some departments have the policy "if everybody shoots him, there are bound to be multiple possibly lethal wounds. Which ever officer killed him will be unknown." Less personal remorse, less likely to get singled out for retribution. Because such a policy is the only reason I can see for 60 hits. and how many misses? Do we have a total number of shots fired?
Click to expand...

No one cop fired 60 times. It looks like each fired until their clips were empty. None of them are reported to have reloaded, so far anyway. And 60 holes could be 30 through and through shots.

I'm not saying this wasn't the typical, he's black, shoot first scenario, with all the things that suck along with that. But it's unlikely he was shot 60 times.

Was it overkill? Probably. But we don't need hyperbole when these things are bad enough without it.
 
Doubt said:
Lots here that does not seem to make sense with just the info we have. Waiting on details to clear this up.

1.) Cops fired 90 bullets and hit 60 times. From what has been collected from various sources about police marksmanship, it is unlikely they would hit with 60% of their rounds. They just are not that good.

2.) His gun was found unloaded. But there was a shell casing in the car. So in the middle of a chase he pulled out the magazine and cleared the weapon? Really?
Click to expand...
The traffic cam supposedly showed a flash while the car was in motion. It's not hard to release a magazine with one hand and have it fall out. And if you fired then dumped the clip without cocking the gun, that would have left the chamber empty.

All of that happened or could have happened before he stopped the vehicle.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
The traffic cam supposedly showed a flash while the car was in motion. It's not hard to release a magazine with one hand and have it fall out. And if you fired then dumped the clip without cocking the gun, that would have left the chamber empty.

All of that happened or could have happened before he stopped the vehicle.
Click to expand...

I have more than a little experience with guns. Removing the magazine from a semiautomatic hand gun does not unload it. If he had fired there would be a round in the chamber unless the gun malfunctioned when it was fired. To have unloaded it he would have to remove the magazine and then clear the chamber. No cocking involved here. The gun does that by itself.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
.... And if you fired then dumped the clip without cocking the gun, that would have left the chamber empty.

All of that happened or could have happened before he stopped the vehicle.
Click to expand...

No, semi-autos, those with magazines, self-cock when they automatically reload. Yes, you can drop the mag one handed, but clearing a jam/recocking takes two hands. Not easy during a car chase. I suspect the gun jammed after one shot, or he would have fired more.

Most criminals have little to no firearms training.
 
casebro said:
No, semi-autos, those with magazines, self-cock when they automatically reload. Yes, you can drop the mag one handed, but clearing a jam/recocking takes two hands. Not easy during a car chase. I suspect the gun jammed after one shot, or he would have fired more.

Most criminals have little to no firearms training.
Click to expand...

Something that occurred to me is that if a guy has literally no idea how to manually clear a round, he might drop the mag and fire the chambered round to unload it. In which case, he might not have been shooting at the cops, but just being genuinely stupid.

I know that clearing the chamber is not exactly brain surgery, but if a criminal's experience is little more than point and pull, he might not have the mechanical sense to do anything but fire to unload the chambered round.
 
casebro said:
No, semi-autos, those with magazines, self-cock when they automatically reload. Yes, you can drop the mag one handed, but clearing a jam/recocking takes two hands. Not easy during a car chase. I suspect the gun jammed after one shot, or he would have fired more.

Most criminals have little to no firearms training.
Click to expand...

Speculating on his actions does not lead to any sort of logical conclusions that I can see so far. Shooting the weapon but then unloading it does not make much sense. He gains nothing by doing that even if he wants to surrender. It costs time but that is about it.

Releasing the magazine by mistake might be an issue but not all that likely outside of it being the least bad explanation I can come up with. That still only makes sense if he lost track of where the magazine went after release.

First shot jam is possible but again seems not all that likely. Unjamming would be difficult while driving but not impossible.

Depending on the gun, it might even be possible to re-cock with the gun braced by the knees or butt and seat but this is obviously more than a little dangerous to the shooter and even then he would have to think about it.

At this point I would not put any bets for or against and any explanation including that he actually fired on the police.
 
Thermal said:
Something that occurred to me is that if a guy has literally no idea how to manually clear a round, he might drop the mag and fire the chambered round to unload it. In which case, he might not have been shooting at the cops, but just being genuinely stupid.

I know that clearing the chamber is not exactly brain surgery, but if a criminal's experience is little more than point and pull, he might not have the mechanical sense to do anything but fire to unload the chambered round.
Click to expand...

Good point. He could have released the magazine first.
 
Doubt said:
Speculating on his actions does not lead to any sort of logical conclusions that I can see so far. Shooting the weapon but then unloading it does not make much sense. He gains nothing by doing that even if he wants to surrender. It costs time but that is about it.

Releasing the magazine by mistake might be an issue but not all that likely outside of it being the least bad explanation I can come up with. That still only makes sense if he lost track of where the magazine went after release.

First shot jam is possible but again seems not all that likely. Unjamming would be difficult while driving but not impossible.

Depending on the gun, it might even be possible to re-cock with the gun braced by the knees or butt and seat but this is obviously more than a little dangerous to the shooter and even then he would have to think about it.

At this point I would not put any bets for or against and any explanation including that he actually fired on the police.
Click to expand...

There was a suggestion in one report that he shot toward the ground.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Good point. He could have released the magazine first.
Click to expand...

Yeah. While you and I and many on the forum were taught responsible gun handling, I strongly think the average criminal has no idea. They buy their gun, legally or no, and off to the races they go. I often wonder if they even know about cleaning and other basic maintanence.
 
Several things to note

1. The suspect fired at the cops when they tried to pull him over.

2. The suspect emerged from the car wearing a ski-mask.

3. The suspect fled from the scene.

Now, as most here will know, when the police shoot an unarmed person, I would usually weigh in on the side of the suspect... but not this time!

There is no reason whatsoever for the Police not to believe he was still armed, so at this point, he represents a danger to the public. If they had let him get away, and he had managed to break into a local business, or a residence........ or a school, and started killing people, we'd be the first ones to be questioning why the police didn't shoot him when they had the chance.
 
arthwollipot said:
Would that be a reason why a gun might jam?
Click to expand...

Yup

https://www.faac.com/blog/2018/01/2...types-causes-what-to-do-how-to-fix-a-gun-jam/

On the range, a “jam” is broad term frequently used to refer to several different firearms malfunctions people encounter. Poor technique, faulty rounds, and mechanical problems lead to a number of reasons as to why the gun got jammed. You can reduce the odds of having your weapon jam by routinely cleaning your firearm. ​
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom