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Any Conspiracy-Busters here?


That is a summary, not the investigation.

There is no mention of a passport at all, although they believe he was flying...

Exactly. The passport was not a crucial peice of evidence at all.

Why can't you admit that they may have planted it?

Allow me to quote Peter Sellers from the movie 'Murder By Death':

"Its Stupid! Its the Stupidest theory I ever heard!"

There is no need for the passport to determine who was flying the plane. Its a red herring by CT'ers.

It is certainly much easier to believe.

No it isn't. Its not even close to being believable. The idea that the conspirators would plant a passport when a host of FBI investiagtion would lead them to the real pilot and hijackers is beyond idiotic.

they mean 15 right because four of them are possibly still alive...right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

Now this has been explained to you several times already. Obviously that lead-brain of yours refused to allow the facts in:

http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html

Also, lets throw out the passport all together...

You are the one who keeps quoting articles that bring it up as if it were proof of anything.

the only way to say with 100% certainty that it was Atta would be from the flight recorder.

Wrong again. The Flight Recorder would not prove much at all. Why do think it would prove it was Atta at the controls?

No, really, tell me the technical specification of the flight recorder that would tell us 'Mohammad Atta is sitting in the pilot's seat'. C'mon, you've just a made quite an assertion about the Flight Recorder's abilities there, why don't you back it up with your superior knowledge. You must know more about the Flight Recorders than the rest of us!
 
The articles you've linked so far have mostly been the personal web sites of nobodies who are scouring the footage and reports looking only for information that bolsters their nonsense argument, but you've dismissed the experts who examined the wreckage and the building plans.

Pfft... experts, Delphi. You can't trust them JUST because they know what they're talking about.

Damned evidence.
 
The articles you've linked so far have mostly been the personal web sites of nobodies who are scouring the footage and reports looking only for information that bolsters their nonsense argument, but you've dismissed the experts who examined the wreckage and the building plans.

No, there are plenty(hundreds) of news articles. Don't betray your ignorance. Just say you haven't looked at them.

You're making the same logical fallacies they do. You exhibit the same insensitivity. The comparison is apt.

*yawn*
There is not one shred of evidence that proves the official story 100%, so you, as has been pointed out, are just as guilty as well.

Wrong again. The Flight Recorder would not prove much at all. Why do think it would prove it was Atta at the controls?

..............

No, really, tell me the technical specification of the flight recorder that would tell us 'Mohammad Atta is sitting in the pilot's seat'. C'mon, you've just a made quite an assertion about the Flight Recorder's abilities there, why don't you back it up with your superior knowledge. You must know more about the Flight Recorders than the rest of us!

Well, I know that if Atta was being investigated that far in advance they probably have recordings of his voice somewhere for comparison/investigative puposes for starters, it's a pretty standard practice in intelligence gathering. That said, there is no way that they could have seen Atta, so I am left to assume if he was flying the plane they determined it some how...that would be by the aid of flight recorders....something you all claim were found even though the government says they weren't.

Now this has been explained to you several times already. Obviously that lead-brain of yours refused to allow the facts in:

http://www.911myths.com/html/still_alive.html

Obviously. :rolleyes:

I guess when you have all those people with the same name you need some way to sort them out....oh yeah...they had pictures...so I guess if that doesn't narrow it down I don't know what will...didn't the people in question call in claiming innocence?...don't you thnk they would recognize themselves?

In anycase, it's reported in more than one paper that has been linked for you, so I assume it has been researched....

The argument you are making based on the article is right brained moronism, the entire 911myths site is a terrible debunking source. It only offers more conservative assumptions to back up the unsupported initial assumptions....it's like a conspiracy site for official hacks like you.
 
There is not one shred of evidence that proves the official story 100%, so you, as has been pointed out, are just as guilty as well.

Funny you should say "not one shred of evidence." Someone else recently got in trouble for using those words...

He once famously insisted that Adolf Hitler knew nothing about the systematic slaughter of six million Jews, and he has been quoted as saying there was "not one shred of evidence" that the Nazis carried out their "final solution" on such a scale.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1645049,00.html
 
Really? So what a low speed for the plane? And what does that have to do with anything?
You aren't aware of f=mv?

Maybe you could have read the previous posts....As stated in the FEMA and NIST reports, it wasn't the fuel fed fire that caused it to fall, it was the office furniture fire that burned for 85 minutes that was ignited by the fuel...they state most of the fuel burned on impact.
And does the initial explosion, combined with the severing of the water lines for the sprinkler system, have anything to do with the ensuing fire that was fueled by solid matter?

ETA: More fuel also means more mass. Fuel does not have zero mass.
 
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That said, there is no way that they could have seen Atta, so I am left to assume if he was flying the plane they determined it some how...that would be by the aid of flight recorders....something you all claim were found even though the government says they weren't.
So now it's us claiming that the flight recorders were found?!?

Maybe they thought Atta was flying the plane because he had the most pilot experience? And, maybe, just maybe, it doesn't really matter in the overall scheme of things which of them was at the controls.

Judging from your arguments here so far, it appears that these are your biggest issues with the standard model:

* That the buildings fell, mostly straight down, after only an hour or so of fire.

* That Atta's passport was found afterwards.

* That a terrorist was able to fly a plane into the Pentagon.

Are there any others you thing are the big ones? Please don't just point to a whole laundry list like you've been doing. We're not asking you to read Randi's Flim Flam, Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World, and Shermer's Why People Believe Wierd Things before we'll even consider you worthy of a discussion. Give us a few big issues, the ones that best demonstrate that the standard model is wrong. So far I've seen the above three.
 
I think you meant f=ma, or p=mv.
I'll take your word for it. But regardless of whether or not I am a physicist, I thought that pretty much everyone knew that the faster a mass travels, the more force it has on impacting something else.

thesyntaxera doesn't seem to know that.
 
I'll take your word for it. But regardless of whether or not I am a physicist, I thought that pretty much everyone knew that the faster a mass travels, the more force it has on impacting something else.

thesyntaxera doesn't seem to know that.

I think we should be talking about momentum instead of force here, but you've still got the right idea.

p=mv
 
I think we should be talking about momentum instead of force here, but you've still got the right idea.

p=mv
I said I'd take CurtC's word for it. I never said I'd take YOUR word for it. :p (You know I'm kidding, dude.) :D

ETA: I'll also point out another aspect of a more severe impact: how much of the fireproofing was blown off the trusses, and throughout a larger region of the building.
 
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I never said I'd take YOUR word for it.

Fine. But you don't have to take my word for it!

readingrainbow.jpg
 
Now later your going to tell me you read them already. Good reason? Wasn't the point of this thread to debunk 9/11 conspiracy theories? Did you think you were going to just make masturbatory comments to each other without anyone challenging anything you were saying?

You misunderstand me. I am explaining to you here why it is unreasonable to post a flood of links and then expect others to post point-by-point rebuttals of everything in those links.

If you can or will not take the time to synthesise the content of these floods of links into something intelligent, why should anybody else take the time to address everything you link to?

Nice of you to identify what you are doing with this post, it is indeed a cop out. No compelling evidence? I have given you pages of compelling "evidence"...since there was no real evidence gathered. It's not that the official story is incorrect on any of it's points, it's that it isn't sure 100% on all it's points, and it leaves a lot of stuff out...potentially on purpose.

If you can find enough ambiguity in the available evidence to fit a coherent conspiracy theory into, roll it out and let us take a look at it. If not, all you have is ambiguities, not evidence of a conspiracy.

*fart noise*

Classy.

I don't really want to compare intellectual testicles with you over this, but it would be safe for you to assume I am at least as informed as you are, and further more, I feel that if you had done the research and been left totally unconvinced you surely have some line of logic that you followed that led you to this conclusion, and that most likely it is the esteem you hold for your own logic that is leading you to this conclusion.

That sounds a bit circular to me, but never mind.

There's not so much a "line of logic" as a methodology. If the evidence shows the official story to be false on an important issue then there's cause for concern, but you admit yourself there is no such evidence. If there is no reason for a rational person to think that the official story is false on any important issue, then it's irrational to believe in conspiracy theories until such a time as evidence emerges.

I don't desire to change your opinion, I asked to know why you have it, and then argued the points that contest it.

You have heard it now. There is simply no reason (right now anyway) to believe that the essentials of the "official" story are false on any point.
 
Well, I know that if Atta was being investigated that far in advance they probably have recordings of his voice somewhere for comparison/investigative puposes for starters, it's a pretty standard practice in intelligence gathering. That said, there is no way that they could have seen Atta, so I am left to assume if he was flying the plane they determined it some how...that would be by the aid of flight recorders.

You said the flight recorders would prove 100% that Atta was in the Pilot's seat. Are you backing away from that claim?

...something you all claim were found even though the government says they weren't.

Uh they weren't found, and we never said otherwise. Keep your lies and deceptions straight scumbag.

Obviously. :rolleyes:

I guess when you have all those people with the same name you need some way to sort them out....oh yeah...they had pictures...so I guess if that doesn't narrow it down I don't know what will...didn't the people in question call in claiming innocence?...don't you thnk they would recognize themselves?

What are you smoking? The FBI has categoricly stated that they know who did it and just because someone Arabic has the same name does not mean the terrorist are 'really alive'.

In anycase, it's reported in more than one paper that has been linked for you, so I assume it has been researched....

I think the FBI has not made an error in this matter. You have yet to prove anything by any decent standards.

The argument you are making based on the article is right brained moronism, the entire 911myths site is a terrible debunking source. It only offers more conservative assumptions to back up the unsupported initial assumptions....it's like a conspiracy site for official hacks like you.

Translation: WAAAAAAH!!! Stop USING FACTS AGAINST ME WAAAAAAH!!!!

Your last paragraph is an admission that you have nothing. Nothing at all.
 
Funny you should say "not one shred of evidence." Someone else recently got in trouble for using those words...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1645049,00.html

Do you hear me calling you a holocaust denier? Is this your fall back argument? Can you not think of something else to insult others with? The message you are sending is that if I don't agree with you, I am comparable to a nazi holocaust denier.....your pretzel logic really astounds.

that isn't even a comparison.

Your paving the way in this thread for racist and slanderous remarks just because you can't explain how you know the official story is true.

GROW UP!
 
ETA: I'll also point out another aspect of a more severe impact: how much of the fireproofing was blown off the trusses, and throughout a larger region of the building
.

So how are you going to explain this? That all the fire proofing did fall off? How is that even possible?
 
You misunderstand me. I am explaining to you here why it is unreasonable to post a flood of links and then expect others to post point-by-point rebuttals of everything in those links.

Kevin, I am trying really hard to understand you, however it seems fit for you to disregard any point I bring up with documentation saying I am asking you to comb through thousands of words of text, and that it is too difficult. I had initially only posted 5 links. You only needed to read the wiki article because it has every argument you have stated, and every counter argument to them written there for you. If that was too much to ask...sorry.

So then I am asked to produce something of more substance...hence the hundreds of newspaper articles that seem to suggest to everyone but you guys apparently that something was amiss that morning.


If you can or will not take the time to synthesise the content of these floods of links into something intelligent, why should anybody else take the time to address everything you link to?

I have already explained this several times, apparently my answers aren't good enough for you. You have said already that none of this is new to you so why even ask this question anyway? You should already know what the synthesis of the content of those articles is....in case you haven't guessed yet they are refutations of your claims and investigations into the circumstances leading up to 911 and after...something that I suppose doesn't have any bearing on your logical process.

If you can find enough ambiguity in the available evidence to fit a coherent conspiracy theory into, roll it out and let us take a look at it. If not, all you have is ambiguities, not evidence of a conspiracy.

This is the easy part, one that you don't seem to notice has been done for you. There are literally 3000 books, and hundreds of movies finding ambiguity in the evidence. The simple fact that no true investigation into anything was done is enough ambiguity...then there's the building collapses which despite what you and your skeptical witch hunter friends say is mysterious...and this is what baffles me about all the responses so far...

A building is hit by a plane, and falls in 85 minutes in defiance of every known law of physics. You all argue it by chopping it down to the plane hit it and weakened the steel and the building collapsed.....is over simplification a requisite for skepticism?

Besides, the biggest clue is that the Commission report, FEMA report, and NIST report all contradict each other and you guys... If you have read them you would notice they don't credit jet fuel, but the burning office contents as enough of a fire to weaken the steel. Which is impossible...

Then there's the fact that white smoke is coming out of the hole the majority of the 85 minutes suggesting a weakened fire, not some raging inferno....

and there is of course the pyroclastic flow of smoke that wafts down...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyroclastic_flow

The way the buildings have collapsed has been analyzed a million different ways, and each time there is never an explanation why the center of the buildings falls first. It's like somebody went in and removed an 8 foot tall section of all the 47 steel core beams and then magically made them completely disappear in three buildings in one day.

There's not so much a "line of logic" as a methodology. If the evidence shows the official story to be false on an important issue then there's cause for concern, but you admit yourself there is no such evidence. If there is no reason for a rational person to think that the official story is false on any important issue, then it's irrational to believe in conspiracy theories until such a time as evidence emerges.

The official story hasn't even been proven may I remind you. It is a conspiracy theory itself.

It's ok for you to believe a poorly supported conspiracy theory about 19 highjackers(even though it is 15 now)who made it through every international, national, and state investigation agency, and every terrorist counter measure our nation, and the international community has to offer. Then after getting here are able to plan and carry out despite numerous warnings from government agencies, as well as international intelligence agencies the deadliest attack on our nation...with the aid of every concieveable coincidental catasrophic failure there could ever be....

but it's stupid of me to assume they maybe had some help???

There is more than enough evidence supplied in the news articles you haven't read to make this a valid concern. In fact, it's really only americans who don't question the official story...just about everyone else in the international community thinks it was an inside job as well.

You have heard it now. There is simply no reason (right now anyway) to believe that the essentials of the "official" story are false on any point

Yes there is, I have been demonstrating it for you. Just read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Conspiracy

also, what are you terming "essentials"? Is this your way of accounting for all the inconsistencies that you find when you compare the three official explanantions?
 
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.then there's the building collapses which despite what you and your skeptical witch hunter friends say is mysterious...and this is what baffles me about all the responses so far...

A building is hit by a plane, and falls in 85 minutes in defiance of every known law of physics. You all argue it by chopping it down to the plane hit it and weakened the steel and the building collapsed.....is over simplification a requisite for skepticism?

Besides, the biggest clue is that the Commission report, FEMA report, and NIST report all contradict each other and you guys... If you have read them you would notice they don't credit jet fuel, but the burning office contents as enough of a fire to weaken the steel. Which is impossible...

Have you read this article?. I believe it addresses many of your questions regarding the collapse, including:

Skyscrapers are designed to support themselves for three hours in a fire even if the sprinkler system fails to operate. This time should be long enough to evacuate the occupants. The WTC towers lasted for one to two hours—less than the design life, but only because the fire fuel load was so large. No normal office fires would fill 4,000 square meters of floor space in the seconds in which the WTC fire developed. Usually, the fire would take up to an hour to spread so uniformly across the width and breadth of the building. This was a very large and rapidly progressing fire (very high heat but not unusually high temperature).
 
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Do you hear me calling you a holocaust denier? Is this your fall back argument? Can you not think of something else to insult others with? The message you are sending is that if I don't agree with you, I am comparable to a nazi holocaust denier.....your pretzel logic really astounds.

that isn't even a comparison.

Your paving the way in this thread for racist and slanderous remarks just because you can't explain how you know the official story is true.

GROW UP!

The message I'm sending is that you're using the same logical fallacies and exhibiting the same insensitivity of a Holocaust denier. Like the Holocaust denier, because you think there are holes in the official story, you claim it is entirely false. One percived inconsistency is enough for you to accuse government officials of covering up the murder of thousands, because that's what you want to believe. Any official or expert disagreeing with you is part of the cover up. Though millions witnessed both the Holocaust and the 9/11 terrorist attacks, eye witnesses are only to be believed if they support your case. Despite overwhelming evidence for the official story, you still claim that there is "not one shred of evidence." Despite the fact that many people lost their lives in a tragic way, you maintain that the murderers who did it are not culpable.

So where's the difference again?
 
there is never an explanation why the center of the buildings falls first.
It also suggests:

. As the heat of the fire intensified, the joints on the most severely burned floors gave way, causing the perimeter wall columns to bow outward and the floors above them to fall. The buildings collapsed within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km/h


The outside bit bows outwards and the inside bit falls down inside. Repeatedly.
 

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