Roe v. Wade overturned -- this is some BS

[Bob001]

Maybe, but you are still talking about each little thing in isolation. People are just bad at answering these kinds of questions. If you ran things based on what people say they want, you'd crash the economy. In as much as it has any meaningful existence, the "will of the people" is wildly incoherent in what it wants, has a memory of about 5 minutes, can maybe hold 2 things in it's head at once and has never read a book.

Also, your framing of the questions is fundamentally progressive.

You're making some pretty broad judgments about the entire population. If you think "the will of the people" is "wildly incoherent," maybe you think there shouldn't be elections at all. Maybe the Kochs should just appoint a ruling council. Would you be okay with that?

And I don't use "progressive" as a sneer. "Would you pay higher taxes for better services?" is a straightforward proposition. And that's way before you get to the fact that our current tax codes and enforcement favor the wealthy in ways we haven't seen since the Golden Age.

 

[Upchurch]

None of this is deriving morality from reason.

shuttit, are you claiming that your position on abortion is, at its heart, irrational and void of reason?

 

[Lplus]

I highlighted the propaganda talking points spouted incessantly by the right wingers.

Police, fire, Medicare, Social Security all "socialist" programs. Are those OK with the majority of voters?

Instead of repeating and therefore amplifying the nonsense that those of us on the left, including Progressives are evil socialists try actually being specific. Oh, no one liked the ACA... until the GOP tried to take it away. Such evil.

Do you even know what socialism is? I doubt it.

Sorry this is off-topic and I'll leave it at this instead of going further. I'm in a blood-boiling mood and sick of hearing this socialism NONSENSE.

Police and fire are government emergency systems, medicare and social security are SOCIAL programmes. They are not Socialism. I wonder if you yourself know the difference.

 

[shuttlt]

With all the same depth and consideration: yeah-huh!

You suggested I think there is no separation between church and state, I said that isn't what I thought.

Perhaps, but like with mathematics, these do not have to be taken unquestioningly on faith. They can be merely granted for the sake of argument but do not limit them from further investigation, if a reason arises.

People in this thread seem to be very certain in their position on abortion given that it is all based on assumptions that have merely been taken for the sake of argument. Other people have other moral assumptions and they disagree. What is the rational process for determining whose assumptions are correct?

Argument from incredulity: Just because you don't understand how something works, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Sure, but if you do understand how it works, maybe you could explain.

A quote you are taking grossly out of context. That is a linguistic flourish in a document whose primary purpose was to tell the King of England to go off. The actual philosophy behind those self-evident truths were argued and debated and took quite a while to be understood before actually being adopted. If anything, those "truths" are a great example of reason and rational thought, especially the parts deconstructing the sovereignty of royal birthright.

Name a self evident truth that your morality is founded on then. Religious people have revealed truths, atheists have "self evident truths".

There is a quote from David Starkey about growing up amongst Quakers, and sitting there as the heavenly spirit spoke through them. He describes remembering thinking how amazing it was that God clearly read the Manchester Guardian. It is similarly a remarkable curiosity how closely the self evident truths that the the Founding Fathers discovered resemble religious beliefs that came out of the English Civil War.

 

[shuttlt]

shuttit, are you claiming that your position on abortion is, at its heart, irrational and void of reason?

It's based on my feelings about the world that I can't rationally justify. It takes a few steps from my core beliefs to get to abortion, but those are the foundations. If we demand that everything must justify it's purpose, meaning and worth in terms of cold rationalism.... then we end up with nihilism.

 

[Upchurch]

You suggested I think there is no separation between church and state, I said that isn't what I thought.

I gave several of different possibilities, only one of which was that you didn't think there is a separation of church and state.

Sure, but if you do understand how it works, maybe you could explain.

Given your recent selective reading comprehension, I'm not sure I could.


For example:

Name a self evident truth that your morality is founded on then. Religious people have revealed truths, atheists have "self evident truths".

[snip]

It is similarly a remarkable curiosity how closely the self evident truths that the the Founding Fathers discovered resemble religious beliefs that came out of the English Civil War.

You didn't actually read what I wrote, did you? About the "self-evident truths"?

 

[shuttlt]

You didn't actually read what I wrote, did you? About the "self-evident truths"?

I did read what you said. You said the "self evident truths" in that document were a literary flourish. None the less, you claimed you can derive your moral stances from reason. OK. Is it reason all the way down, or is there a turtle somewhere towards the bottom that all this is built on? If so, what is it? The turtles that liberalism came from, mostly came from the beliefs of religions sects around the English Civil War.

 

[Upchurch]

It's based on my feelings about the world that I can't rationally justify. It takes a few steps from my core beliefs to get to abortion, but those are the foundations. If we demand that everything must justify it's purpose, meaning and worth in terms of cold rationalism.... then we end up with nihilism.

No amount of reason will dissuade someone from a position that they reached through irrationality.

 

[Upchurch]

I did read what you said. You said the "self evident truths" in that document were a literary flourish.

...go on. What else did I write?

If you had actually read what I said, you would not have been referencing self-evident truths like it was an actual thing, or that the founders found to be an actual thing.

 

[shuttlt]

No amount of reason will dissuade someone from a position that they reached through irrationality.

Well, no indeed.

 

[shuttlt]

...go on. What else did I write?

If you had actually read what I said, you would not have been referencing self-evident truths like it was an actual thing, or that the founders found to be an actual thing.

Enlighten me. Is it reason all the way down, or are there turtles somewhere down there?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Police and fire are government emergency systems, medicare and social security are SOCIAL programmes. They are not Socialism. I wonder if you yourself know the difference.

Here's the definition. You need to read it. It's off-topic in this thread.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

This is just crap!
More crap.

Crap all you want, it wasn't a Republican who was the final nay in the 51-49 tally against the Women's Health Protection Act, it was Democratic Senator Joe Manchin. The bill had previously been introduced in 2021, 2019, 2017, 2015 and 2013. It wasn't Mitch McConnell who was campaigning for anti-choice Rep Cuellar (D) just after the scotus announcement, it was Nancy Pelosi. As much as abortion rights have formed a pillar of their campaign rhetoric, that sure as **** hasn't been translating into action.

Right now, of course, everyone on my primary ballot down to the city dog catcher has "will fight for womens' right to have abortions" on their soap boxes. And maybe they will. Good on them if so. It really shouldn't have had to come to that. If moderate Dems want to help turn this around going forward, they're going to need to learn from their mistakes, not gaslight themselves into believing they've never made any and it was always someone else holding them back.

And Moscow Mitch hasn't compromised on one single thing. He makes sure he blocks everything.

Yeah, that's how it works. Democrats compromise, McConnell takes their concessions and demands more while giving nothing back. The progressives and the extremists and the purity testers you treat with such contempt have been telling you that for years.

 

[Minoosh]

... If I say I would like to see an increased focus on personal responsibility, that is scoffed at. ...

I don't think I scoffed at it. I asked, what would that look like?

Personal responsibility is a good thing. We'll take that as a given. Now: A woman is six weeks pregnant and she wants to end the pregnancy. Should she have that right? Should she only have that right if she used birth control?

To me, at that point, it seems like making her bear the kid to teach her a lesson just isn't good policy.

What would an abortion policy that emphasized personal responsibility look like? Just saying you'd like to see it emphasized doesn't tell me anything.

 

[Warp12]

I don't think I scoffed at it. I asked, what would that look like?

Personal responsibility is a good thing. We'll take that as a given. Now: A woman is six weeks pregnant and she wants to end the pregnancy. Should she have that right? Should she only have that right if she used birth control?

To me, at that point, it seems like making her bear the kid to teach her a lesson just isn't good policy.

What would an abortion policy that emphasized personal responsibility look like? Just saying you'd like to see it emphasized doesn't tell me anything.

I don't care now. Roe is dead. Children can be made to carry rape and incest babies to term for all I care. Complete abortion bans will not cause me to blink an eye. I do not care if all sex education is eliminated from schools, nor if birth control is outlawed.

I now have zero interest in seeing politicians working towards reasonable compromise on this matter. I don't care how many suffer now due to this ruling, either. As far as I am concerned liberals have brought this upon themselves through their loser political actions and ever-increasing demands for relaxed abortion law.

 

[lionking]

I don't care now. Roe is dead. Children can be made to carry rape and incest babies to term for all I care. Complete abortion bans will not cause me to blink an eye. I do not care if all sex education is eliminated from schools, nor if birth control is outlawed.

I now have zero interest in seeing politicians working towards reasonable compromise on this matter. I don't care how many suffer now due to this ruling, either. As far as I am concerned liberals have brought this upon themselves through their loser political actions and ever-increasing demands for relaxed abortion law.

You don’t support Trump, but you repeat his points almost word for word. Seriously, you expect others to believe that?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't care now. Roe is dead. Children can be made to carry rape and incest babies to term for all I care. Complete abortion bans will not cause me to blink an eye. I do not care if all sex education is eliminated from schools, nor if birth control is outlawed.

I now have zero interest in seeing politicians working towards reasonable compromise on this matter. I don't care how many suffer now due to this ruling, either. As far as I am concerned liberals have brought this upon themselves through their loser political actions and ever-increasing demands for relaxed abortion law.

What a cop-out. You can't answer Minoosh so you hide behind, "I don't care."

And now you blame liberals?

I see a pattern here. The pregnant woman is to blame. The liberals are to blame because the system is set up to allow tyranny by the minority. And in this case that minority is an extreme right-wing white Christian minority that has worked very hard using a lot of propaganda and fear mongering to impose their Christian Taliban on the rest of us.

 

[Stacyhs]

I don't care now. Roe is dead. Children can be made to carry rape and incest babies to term for all I care. Complete abortion bans will not cause me to blink an eye. I do not care if all sex education is eliminated from schools, nor if birth control is outlawed.

I now have zero interest in seeing politicians working towards reasonable compromise on this matter. I don't care how many suffer now due to this ruling, either. As far as I am concerned liberals have brought this upon themselves through their loser political actions and ever-increasing demands for relaxed abortion law.

How very Christian of you. Oh, I'm sorry. Am I picking on Christians now?

" ever-increasing demands for relaxed abortion law"

Since Roe v Wade in 1973, exactly what 'ever-increasing demands for relaxed abortion law" have liberals made? They've fought against ever-increasing restrictive abortion laws like the one TX enacted. Get a grip on reality.

 

[Leumas]

I don't care now. Roe is dead. Children can be made to carry rape and incest babies to term for all I care. Complete abortion bans will not cause me to blink an eye. I do not care if all sex education is eliminated from schools, nor if birth control is outlawed.

I now have zero interest in seeing politicians working towards reasonable compromise on this matter. I don't care how many suffer now due to this ruling, either. As far as I am concerned liberals have brought this upon themselves through their loser political actions and ever-increasing demands for relaxed abortion law.

The Taliban say similar things about their mothers and sisters and aunts and daughters too in defense of their THEOCRACY.

I now have zero interest in seeing politicians working towards reasonable compromise on this matter. I don't care how many suffer now due to this ruling, either.

And now we can see how a Theocracy works.

 

[Warp12]

How very Christian of you. Oh, I'm sorry. Am I picking on Christians now?

I think yes, your comment is intended as being derogatory towards Christians.