• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mojo said:
I’m sure a Russian army truck is just the thing someone would use if they wanted to inconspicuously smuggle Russian military hardware.
Click to expand...

Sweden was smuggling stolen Soviet army trucks for the CIA to deliver to Israel because

I'm stuck. Somebody help?
 
Vixen said:
You know perfectly well I modified statement no.1. Why are have you ignored it?
Click to expand...
At no point did you retract your claim about Moik or explain why you made the claim in the first place. Remember that you have said that you have said that all your comments without an 'IMV' disclaimer are sourced.

You merely stated that Moik obviously wasn't fired after someone else told you he continued to work for Estline.

Are you retracting your claim about Moik being fired for saying that Piht was seen on TV and admitting you had no evidence for saying it in the first place?
I gave you the link to Andresson being under contract for punctuality.
Click to expand...
So why did you offer the excuse that Andresson's contract wasn't public domain when asked how you knew what was in it? Why didn't you offer this evidence when first asked how you knew what was in his contract instead of simply repeating that it was a fact that hie was under contract to ensure punctuality before making excuses about his contract not being publicly domain?

When I find the Atlantic Lock article you will be the first to know.
Click to expand...
I wait with baited breath.
 
Last edited:
JesseCuster said:
You merely stated that Moik obviously wasn't fired after someone else told you he continued to work for Estline.
Click to expand...

By the way, there was some confused timeline with that claim. The Moik interview that supposedly led to his firing happened in 1999. The time when surviving crew of Estonia had to make new contracts was in 1994, immediately after the sinking. Vixen somehow conflated these together in at least one post.
 
Vixen said:
If Treu could get up to the funnel deck in two minutes from Deck 0 (so he claims) then how come there was virtually ZERO time to arrange an orderly evacuation of the passengers? The Oceanos managed to evacuate all right, as did the Costa Concorda and the more recent Greek ferry, yesterday, albeit sadly not all.

You seem to think it all perfectly normal for 900 to drown just like that.
Click to expand...

The Oceanos evacuated due to the guitarist on board, the crew apparently had little to do with it. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-60841291
 
zooterkin said:
The Oceanos evacuated due to the guitarist on board, the crew apparently had little to do with it. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-60841291
Click to expand...

I saw that. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I did mention the captain and his crew were prosecuted for having left the ship ASAP* leaving the passengers to fend for themselves. Thankfully, the ship had a slow flood in the engine room and took eighteen hours to sink, before finally capsizing and sinking within nine minutes. Remember the quibble about whether this was starboard or port...? (Because the youtube video shown was back to front.)

*I got this information off google or wikipedia but in the aforesaid bbc article the guitarist says the captain was there looking as though he was in shock. In the story I saw, he is quoted as telling the court that the reason he left the boat before the passengers was because it was easier for him to direct operations from the shore.
 
Update: Sweden's ship Discovery will be making an expedition to take more photogrpahs of the wreck. It doesn't plan to look for anything new.

Investigations into the car ferry at the Estonian wreck in the Baltic Sea will resume in a few weeks. The purpose of this year’s research is primarily to document the wreck, not so much to make new discoveries.

- It is not necessarily that we want new discoveries, but we want to make careful photo documentation, says Jonas Bäckstrand, a representative of the Swedish Accident Investigation Board, to the news agency TT.

The plan is to study the sunken car ferry in June using photogrammetry.
Click to expand...
kymensanomat
 
Sounds like they're photographing the wreck and the wreck site in their entirety, something that has not been done. So how does anyone know what they will find, or won't find?
 
Are you ever going to actually answer any of the many, many questions put to you Vixen or are you just going to keep running away from them?
 
UPDATE NEWS

Re the current affairs topic of the Estonia sinking in 1994. As you may recall a joint official Swedish/Estonian team headed by Arikas, examined the ship last summer - winter intervened - and now they are back looking at it again. There has been a small oil spillage.

Arikas has discovered, in the most recent findings from July 2021, from the 3D-imaging, that the damage to the hull is actually 6m by 40m - much more extensive than thought earlier (4m x 22m).

OJK head, Captain Rene Arikas, said that hull deformation is far more extensive than the crew found last year.

"If preliminary studies last year suggested the tear on the starboard side was four meters high and 22 meters long, we have now learned it measures at least six meters in height and runs along for 40 meters, longer even," Arikas told ERR.

"The hull is deformed there, with holes, cracks, crumpling and the outside plating of the ship being pressed inward. Because the damage continues under the hull, we cannot see its full extent, but it is visible along ca 40 meters."

Investigators found the damage near the top of the 155-meter ferry's sixth deck, while, this time, deformation was also observed on deck seven. For example, there is damage to the boat davits.

The damage on the starboard stern side runs along the entire stern deck from deck six to decks seven and eight.
Click to expand...
ERR

Before anyone says that 'these deformations are to be expected after 27 years', by coincidence, the lifeboat that sank in 1947 - 75 years ago - during a rescue of USS Park Victory, when it crashed into a rock near Utö - not far from a similar location to the Estonia wreck - was located four years ago near Kaarina, and has recently been recovered by another diving enthusiast. It is near intact, apart from the damage that caused it to sink.

The fourth lifeboat of the US cargo ship S / S Park Victory, which ended up at Pansion shipyard via Uunnina in Kaunnina's Lemunniemi and Orikedo.

Park Victory sank off Utö in 1947. Other lifeboats were once returned to the United States, but this one was left behind.

Jouko Moisala , a diving activist and author of a book on the history of Park Victory, is now moving the tarpaulin off the top of that boat. The gray side of the eight-meter iron boat has rusted in some places and is no longer the bottom. The keel iron is in place, but 75 years of neglect have wreaked havoc.

- We put the boat on these supports, so it is in the same pattern in terms of width and length as the original. But it had been on the shore for over 50 years, so it was full to the brim with decaying leaves and twigs, Moisala talks about when presenting the boat.
Click to expand...
TURUN SANOMAT


Background:

In complete darkness, in the midst of the storm, the crew began to lower the lifeboats. The men were in a hurry as the ship sank quickly. One of the lifeboats collided and fifteen men jumped there.

Three lifeboats crashed out of Utö Pier, but the weather was so bad that they only finally got help in the morning. One of the men waiting in Kari had been frozen during the night to death and the other had died on land despite resuscitation measures.

A total of 38 of Park Victory’s 48 crew members were saved from the tragedy. Ten lost their lives.

Captain Zepp survived the accident, and only died decades later. His 96-year-old widow Wilma Zepp and her son and grandchildren visited Utö in the summer of 2017.
Click to expand...

Nothing has been heard yet of the results Magnus Kurm's private expedition in September 2021.
 
Can you think of any differences between an 8 meter lifeboat and a 155 meter roro ferry?

Damage will increase at a faster rate as the wreck ages and weakens. I wouldn't be surprised to see it start breaking up over the next couple of years
 
Last edited:
Before anyone says that 'these deformations are to be expected after 27 years', by coincidence, the lifeboat that sank in 1947 - 75 years ago - during a rescue of USS Park Victory, when it crashed into a rock near Utö - not far from a similar location to the Estonia wreck - was located four years ago near Kaarina, and has recently been recovered by another diving enthusiast. It is near intact, apart from the damage that caused it to sink.
Click to expand...

So what you've just admitted to is that you will reject the facts in advance.

All this report indicates is that a large ship, laying on its side for over two decades, has a progressive structural failure due to damage from the initial impact from the sea floor. We know that the hull has rolled since the first survey done right after the sinking, and it could very well tumble down the slope it is perched on some time in the future.

You know what the report doesn't indicate? A bomb, or torpedo, or impact from a submarine.

Here's the link to the news story:

https://news.err.ee/1608635287/damage-to-ms-estonia-hull-more-extensive-than-previously-believed

The more interesting news is that Estonia is leaking oil, and these days this usually means that at some point the local governments will contract out to have the tanks drained by salvage specialists. This means that there will eventually be divers back on the wreck for extended work periods.

The report also states that they plan to survey the car decks to see how well secured the cargo was on the night of the sinking.

So, no cover-up, and no surprises so far.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom