Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[d4m10n]

There's a lot less to fix if you don't break it first and then start gathering data on how to fix it.

I just wanted to this remark.

OP was about women's weightlifting, and no one has ever pointed to any studies which could be reasonably construed as evidence in favor of including folks like Laurel Hubbard on grounds of fairness.

(Instead, people have been chastised for daring to ask for evidence, which is quite something on a forum dedicated to evidence-based thinking.)

If the IOC hadn't've torn down Chesterton's fence^WP earlier, they wouldn't look half so silly right now.

ETA: Lia Thomas might well be the next Olympian to test these policies.

 

[lionking]

ETA: Lia Thomas might well be the next Olympian to test these policies.

The woman who loses a place in the Olympic team to Thomas will be extremely unfortunate.

It’s difficult to compare times because the US still has 200yd events. Thomas will have to swim an additional 17 meters, at around .5 of a second per meter that would put their time very close if not under the world record. Thomas cannot be allowed to compete. It’s an unfair advantage.

 

[lionking]

The thought of gold medalist Ariane Titmus being beaten by a bloke makes me feel I’ll.

 

[d4m10n]

....you'll what?

ETA: Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Aber]

FINA have updated rules for transgender swimmers

The new eligibility policy for FINA competitions states that male-to-female transgender athletes are eligible to compete only if "they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 (of puberty) or before age 12, whichever is later, and they have since continuously maintained their testosterone levels in serum (or plasma) below 2.5 nmol/L".

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/fina-votes-restrict-transgender-participation-elite-womens-competition-2022-06-19/

Full policy announcement

https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdf

 

[TheGoldcountry]

FINA have updated rules for transgender swimmers



https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/fina-votes-restrict-transgender-participation-elite-womens-competition-2022-06-19/

Full policy announcement

https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdf

"Comfortable satisfaction" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that statement.

It's going to be difficult to prove constant maintenance of testosterone levels, I imagine.

 

[theprestige]

It's almost like people with certain mental conditions have too much else to deal with, to realistically pursue a career in competitive sports.

 

[Rolfe]

"Comfortable satisfaction" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that statement.

It's going to be difficult to prove constant maintenance of testosterone levels, I imagine.

I think it's going to be a bit academic anyway. Any boy who has not gone through puberty past Tanner 2 is not likely to be competitive athletically even against fit and healthy girls.

I think they put that bit in for two reasons. One is it allows CAIS women to be included without a lot of fuss about Y chromosomes and SRY genes. The other is, just in case someone like Jazz Jennings or Suzie Green's kid (can't remember the name) suddenly gets a yen to get involved in competitive sport. Which in practice is not likely to happen.

 

[The Atheist]

You were going fine until the last paragraph. In my sports mad country, women athletes have been celebrated by entire 70 year old life and decades before I was born. Maybe not so much in the 19th century.

I'm sure that kind of thinking is due to some countries not playing netball.

ETA: Lia Thomas might well be the next Olympian to test these policies.

As noted, thankfully, world swimming have seen the light, and hopefully that becomes the benchmark.

 

[lionking]

FINA have updated rules for transgender swimmers



https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/fina-votes-restrict-transgender-participation-elite-womens-competition-2022-06-19/

Full policy announcement

https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdf

Good news. Thomas will not be an Olympian.

 

[d4m10n]

Some activist responses:

https://twitter.com/Wons23/status/1538610088298045441

https://twitter.com/goshtastic/status/1538609736068829187

https://twitter.com/zukitten/status/1538568254465138689

Expect the ACLU to weigh in soon, using similarly loaded language.

 

[lionking]

The vote wasn’t close:

The policy was passed with a roughly 71 per cent majority after it was put to the members of 152 national federations

 

[Rolfe]

At the same time some footballing body ruled that any man can play in the ladies' game if he just says he's a woman. No body modifications or hormone limits.

That is not going to age well.

 

[lionking]

At the same time some footballing body ruled that any man can play in the ladies' game if he just says he's a woman. No body modifications or hormone limits.

That is not going to age well.

Well let’s hope FINA’s science-based ruling is a template for all sporting bodies.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Some activist responses:

https://twitter.com/Wons23/status/1538610088298045441

https://twitter.com/goshtastic/status/1538609736068829187

https://twitter.com/zukitten/status/1538568254465138689

Expect the ACLU to weigh in soon, using similarly loaded language.

Wow. Some completely pulled out of someone's rectum, nonsense reimagining of history in there.

Joe Garcia ����
@Wons23
·
2h
Replying to
@Wons23
the reason women were segregated into their own sports is because they would just participate because there was nothing else, and they'd place or even win. it was embarrassing to men, so they banned and then separated them

I'd like them to point out when this happened.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

(Dr) Zosia Kuczyńska
@goshtastic
#FINA’s decision to ban trans women from the sport if they’ve gone through male puberty is transphobic but also classist & racist. Even if all trans people has sussed their gender identity as kids & could safely socially transition, not everyone has access to puberty blockers.

Sigh. Yes, this is true, and I feel for the people without access to healthcare they need. Just as I always have for everyone who has needed healthcare and were denied.

But you don't solve one social ill by compounding it in another area.

It seems that some people think this is just a game of scoring social justice points. This person got screwed over here, so we'll make it up to them here. It doesn't ******* work. If you think people need better access to healthcare, than fight for it, and I'll be 100% on your side. That doesn't mean you get to screw over other people because they aren't disadvantaged enough.

At least they're honest. Do everything the way we want or you're a bigoted TERF. No one can possibly have sincere concerns; they must just hate transgender people.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm sure that kind of thinking is due to some countries not playing netball.



As noted, thankfully, world swimming have seen the light, and hopefully that becomes the benchmark.

They haven't "seen the light".

They've studied all the relevant research data (which is increasing in size and reliability every day), held consultations, and then taken evidence-based action.

I'm still (un-) surprised at how much misunderstanding continues to exist in this thread regarding concepts such as due process and evidence-based intervention/policy-making. But there you go. At least, I suppose, people will now stop hating on Lia Thomas......

 

[shuttlt]

At the same time some footballing body ruled that any man can play in the ladies' game if he just says he's a woman. No body modifications or hormone limits.

That is not going to age well.

How it ages depends on who wins. Everybody is conservative about what he knows best, or cares about most... and conservatism has been losing for a long time. What makes you think this line can be held, other than it is the line you personally want to hold? As the revolution moves forward, you always have old revolutionaries who must fall under the wheels of progress. You had revolutionaries for whom the revolution went too far before you, and there will be revolutionaries for whom the revolution goes too far after you. The revolution is a direction, not a destination.

 

[LondonJohn]

Some activist responses:

https://twitter.com/Wons23/status/1538610088298045441

https://twitter.com/goshtastic/status/1538609736068829187

https://twitter.com/zukitten/status/1538568254465138689

Expect the ACLU to weigh in soon, using similarly loaded language.

Good grief: trawling twitter for random responses? Really? You do realise that for literally any topic, there are - among the billions of social media users - always plenty of nutters who will post their extreme reactions... on either extreme end of the spectrum?

And whatever position the ACLU decides to take, it'll never gain any traction if it lobbies for transwomen's inclusion in elite-level (or, for that matter, sub-elite level) sport. These bans (and expect more and more to follow) are just and appropriate, and - crucially - they are founded upon actual evidence and careful consultation & analysis. Not just on "feelings".

 

[Rolfe]

Sigh. Yes, this is true, and I feel for the people without access to healthcare they need. Just as I always have for everyone who has needed healthcare and were denied.

But you don't solve one social ill by compounding it in another area.

It seems that some people think this is just a game of scoring social justice points. This person got screwed over here, so we'll make it up to them here. It doesn't ******* work. If you think people need better access to healthcare, than fight for it, and I'll be 100% on your side. That doesn't mean you get to screw over other people because they aren't disadvantaged enough.

At least they're honest. Do everything the way we want or you're a bigoted TERF. No one can possibly have sincere concerns; they must just hate transgender people.

I think this thing about boys who have never progressed past Tanner 2 is a side-show. Disturbed children who are pushing to transition early and children with the potential to become seriously competitive athletes are not groups that have a lot of overlap, if any.

I think if any such boys do come forward to get involved in competitive sport, it's more likely they'll get injured in training than that they'll beat healthy girls. Puberty blockers are the last thing you want to be taking for healthy bones, muscles and cardiovascular system.

I think they put the clause in just in case someone like Jazz Jennings or Suzie Green's kid wanted to get involved. Such people do exist after all. I think however it's highly unlikely that this is a practical likelihood. Does Jazz Jennings look like the next Sharron Davies to anyone? And the last I heard about the Green sprog, he was out of commission with multiple fractures.

The clause could make it easy for CAIS girls to compete without people getting all upset about SRY genes, though.