Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[mumblethrax]

It's because women believe it's about hacking gender, something that benefits them in a historically sexist society. Once they realize it's about hacking sex, putting them in the same room as male prisoners and male athletes, they'll change their tune.

Paternalism again.

I'm pretty sure women understand the implications of transwomen using the ladies' room, but there's a big gulf between men and women there, too.

Better obfuscate that as long as possible! What are a few hundred thousand rapes, if we can ensure that transexual males are female, am I right?

You know, I don't think you are?

 

[Brainster]

So.... do you think that the deliberate, repeated, pointed misgendering of a transgender person is:

a) fair game?

b) entirely unimportant and irrelevant in the context of any discussion about transgender people, their rights and protections within a fair society?

c) in no way indicative of a rejection of the very notion of transgender identity (rather than, say, a pretence that this is purely about women's sport)?

d) all of the above?

e) none of the above?

Impolite but sometimes required? What do you think about the beeb changing the words of a rape survivor? She initially said:

"I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so he was a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout, so I agreed to go home with him. He used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing his penis and raped me."

The beeb checked with the rapist and found the preferred pronouns were they and their, so they last sentence became: "They used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing their penis and raped me."

It is unfortunate that the rapist did not go for the she/her pronouns, then we could have had a classic National Enquirer headline "Then She Raped Me With Her Penis!"

 

[Ziggurat]

Impolite but sometimes required? What do you think about the beeb changing the words of a rape survivor?

And so a Ricky Gervais joke turned into a prophecy.

 

[Aber]

That would be nice to know, but I'm not aware of any such data.

Have some more data...

More than 90 percent of elite women’s cyclists are opposed to competing against transgender athletes, according to a survey carried out by The Cyclistes Professionnels (CPA).

The CPA conducted the survey of its female members earlier this year and presented the findings to the sport’s governing body, the UCI.

“The CPA women ran a survey a few months ago and over 92 percent did not agree with trans athletes racing in the women’s peloton.”

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/trans-athletes-face-opposition-from-more-than-90-of-elite-womens-cyclists-who-are-against-them-competing/270022

I don't see a strong case for sex segregation in sports.

Why?

It is clear that males have a large physical advantage.

 

[llwyd]

It is clear that males have a large physical advantage.

I tend to agree: if sex segregation in sports is weakly supported and not that essential, it could then be just as well abolished - and I think that would largely end professional top sports for both biological and transwomen, but maybe that would then be ok? I don't know, it just doesn't sound very nice or very fair.

 

[lionking]

I tend to agree: if sex segregation in sports is weakly supported and not that essential, it could then be just as well abolished - and I think that would largely end professional top sports for both biological and transwomen, but maybe that would then be ok? I don't know, it just doesn't sound very nice or very fair.

Just ask elite women athletes who make a living from the sports they play well. They do not want to compete in unfair contest. Some people in this thread think sport is not important. They are wrong.

 

[Darat]

Impolite but sometimes required? What do you think about the beeb changing the words of a rape survivor? She initially said:



The beeb checked with the rapist and found the preferred pronouns were they and their, so they last sentence became: "They used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing their penis and raped me."

It is unfortunate that the rapist did not go for the she/her pronouns, then we could have had a classic National Enquirer headline "Then She Raped Me With Her Penis!"

Some background, raised an internal review in the BBC:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...e-trans-women-did-not-meet-accuracy-standards

 

[lionking]

Some background, raised an internal review in the BBC:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...e-trans-women-did-not-meet-accuracy-standards

An internal BBC review makes a finding about BBC reporting? One which appeals to the left? Yeah, funny.

 

[Darat]

An internal BBC review makes a finding about BBC reporting? One which appeals to the left? Yeah, funny.

Did you read it?

 

[lionking]

Did you read it?

Yes.

 

[Darat]

Yes.

Then where did the "One which appeals to the left? Yeah, funny." come from? There is nothing in the report that can be interpreted to be left or right.

 

[lionking]

Then where did the "One which appeals to the left? Yeah, funny." come from? There is nothing in the report that can be interpreted to be left or right.

In your opinion.

 

[Ziggurat]

One pattern we've seen in this thread is that pro-trans folks who don't compete athletically or follow athletic competition tend to solve the sports problem by dismissing sports as unimportant and therefore properly sacrificed to the principle of inclusion.

This is a very common phenomenon in politics. Lots of people are willing to have others sacrifice for the cause, whatever that cause is.

Polling data. For every question pertaining to trans rights, in every US poll I've ever seen, women have been more supportive than men. Usually by a big margin.

For example, this poll: https://news.gallup.com/poll/350174/mixed-views-among-americans-transgender-issues.aspx

This poll has two questions, one about the military and one about sports. Both are largely male spheres, so I'm not sure women in general being more pro-trans for these issues is really an indicator of how they treat their own self-interest.

 

[mumblethrax]

Have some more data...

Thanks. Data is a lofty word for a survey asking unknown questions using an unknown methodology, but I'm not surprised there's a large majority against internationally.

Why?

Did you read anything I wrote before or after that?

It is clear that males have a large physical advantage.

Those advantages accrue as a result of having undergone male puberty, so this is the thing we should be discriminating on. And I see no reason at all not to allow anyone who wants to to compete in the higher performance division. Not that I expect many will.

 

[mumblethrax]

This poll has two questions, one about the military and one about sports. Both are largely male spheres, so I'm not sure women in general being more pro-trans for these issues is really an indicator of how they treat their own self-interest.

As I said, every poll I've ever seen exhibits this difference on every question. That's not to say that it always happens, but it sure happens a lot.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/210887/americans-split-new-lgbt-protections-restroom-policies.aspx

 

[shuttlt]

As I said, every poll I've ever seen exhibits this difference on every question. That's not to say that it always happens, but it sure happens a lot.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/210887/americans-split-new-lgbt-protections-restroom-policies.aspx

Typically polling shows you a couple of things on these kinds of questions. First that women have more generically liberal/progressive view than men. Secondly you often see that women are the most strident at both ends of the debate. On this forum, for example... I'd say Rolfe and Emily's Cat are the two posters who are most invested in protecting women's spaces from trans-activist encroachment.

 

[Emily's Cat]

By having a sense of yourself as that thing.

For example, someone might have been raised in a working class family, become rich, but still identify himself as working class.

How much veracity do you grant to someone who was born into a wealthy family, grew up in wealth and privilege, has only ever experienced wealth and privilege... but identifies themself as working class?

Would you accept that their identity was a reasonably accurate representation of 'working class'?

 

[shuttlt]

How much veracity do you grant to someone who was born into a wealthy family, grew up in wealth and privilege, has only ever experienced wealth and privilege... but identifies themself as working class?

Would you accept that their identity was a reasonably accurate representation of 'working class'?

 

[Emily's Cat]

This problem is inflated out of all proportion.

Says a male who is not at all affected by this.

On the other hand... the females forced to share prison cells with males with fully functional penises seem to think it's a pretty real problem. So do the female athletes losing positions to males with male anatomy and male physical advantages. Not to mention the female patient on a female-only ward who was raped by a male patient, then gaslit for a YEAR by doctors who insisted that there were no "men" on the ward even though it was caught on tape. Or the entire female middle school swim team in Oregon who now take turns using the staff changing room because there's a physically intact male who uses the female showers at the same time as them. Or the female victim who was raped AT A RAPE SHELTER by a male who was allowed in because of their 'gender identity'.

Somehow, when it really only affects females, it's always 'blown out of proportion' in the eyes of many males.

 

[theprestige]

mumblethrax, remember when you wondered where on earth I got the idea you weren't particularly concerned about women and their interests?

Well...

This problem is inflated out of all proportion.

Says a male who is not at all affected by this.

On the other hand... the females forced to share prison cells with males with fully functional penises seem to think it's a pretty real problem. So do the female athletes losing positions to males with male anatomy and male physical advantages. Not to mention the female patient on a female-only ward who was raped by a male patient, then gaslit for a YEAR by doctors who insisted that there were no "men" on the ward even though it was caught on tape. Or the entire female middle school swim team in Oregon who now take turns using the staff changing room because there's a physically intact male who uses the female showers at the same time as them. Or the female victim who was raped AT A RAPE SHELTER by a male who was allowed in because of their 'gender identity'.

Somehow, when it really only affects females, it's always 'blown out of proportion' in the eyes of many males.

Q.E.D.