The Jan. 6 Investigation

[Warp12]

But Trump's confidence was based on nothing, which makes it an odd type of confidence.

So we have

• being confident of something without a shred of evidence
• doing so allows you to play both sides

This adds up to nefarious intent - conscious or not - being more likely.

Oh, I don't know. A lot of people believe things without evidence, all of the time. I mean, it is no different than any other conspiracy theory in that regard.

You don't need to look any further than this forum to see examples.

As far as "unconscious" nefarious intent...I don't know about that, either...I meant "intent" implies you are conscious of something, generally.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Sorry GZ, I'm afraid your position against me is of little merit. You can call my position "wrong" all you want, but it is at least as plausible a reality as what you proclaim as fact.

You simply don't understand what "fair election" means if you think it's depended on the outcome..

 

[Warp12]

You simply don't understand what "fair election" means if you think it's depended on the outcome..

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but whatever.

One can believe that election fraud exists, independent of the outcome. Claiming fraud, win or lose, is right in line with a general belief in the corruption of the opposing party.

 

[Stacyhs]

Of what significance are her beliefs?

It's well known that Ivanka is Daddy's favorite and as a 'WH Special Advisor' to Daddy, he listens to her advice and opinion more than just about anybody. Bob Woodward and reporter Robert Costa wrote in Peril, ”that the then-first daughter told the 45th president three times to “let this thing go” and “let it go,” regarding the 'rigged' election claims.

What did Trump believe? That is a more relevant question, imo.

It doesn't matter what he believed when it came to stopping the electoral ballot count process which is a felony obstruction charge. He had no legal basis for doing so despite what he personally believed.

 

[smartcooky]

Well, do you think there was ever a point where Trump said to himself, "I know I lost this election, fair and square. But I'm going to concoct a plan to keep myself in power, regardless."?

Yup, that is exactly what he did, along with others who also knew that he lost the election, and helped him do it.

The January 6 insurrection was almost certainly planned, not just by the Oath keepers and the Proud Boys and other white supremacist groups, but planned at the highest level of the Trump Administration - John Eastman, Peter Navarro, Jeffrey Clark, Scott Perry, Mo Brooks etc, as well as people in Trump's circle, Roger Stone, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, Steve Bannon, Cleta Mitchell, Michael Flynn et al and any others who met at the Willard Hotel "War Room" prior to January 6 --- and of course, The Fat Orange Turd himself.

 

[Warp12]

It doesn't matter what he believed when it came to stopping the electoral ballot count process which is a felony obstruction charge. He had no legal basis for doing so despite what he personally believed.

Well, gosh darn it, it matters to me.

 

[Stacyhs]

False/misleading statement...and unsubstantiated, as usual.

Nobody is saying they believe in conspiracy theories. I'm saying, I like to hear different viewpoints. Depending on the supporting evidence, any "conspiracy theory" could turn out to be factual in whole or part.

Mikegriffith1's post is, in fact, a debunked conspiracy theory. If you like to hear debunked conspiracy theories, there's a forum for that. It's where his post belongs.

 

[Warp12]

The January 6 insurrection was almost certainly planned, not just by the Oath keepers and the Proud Boys and other white supremacist groups, but planned at the highest level of the Trump Administration - John Eastman, Peter Navarro, Jeffrey Clark, Scott Perry, Mo Brooks etc, as well as people in Trump's circle, Roger Stone, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, Steve Bannon, Cleta Mitchell, Michael Flynn et al and any others who met at the Willard Hotel "War Room" prior to January 6 --- and of course, The Fat Orange Turd himself.

Well, then we should see the evidence of this master plan presented in the findings of the committee.

 

[smartcooky]

It doesn't matter what he believed when it came to stopping the electoral ballot count process which is a felony obstruction charge. He had no legal basis for doing so despite what he personally believed.

Yeah, Warp12's position seems to be akin to "I believe Fred Smith is a reptilian alien invader from the third brightest star in the constellation of Draco and because I truly, honestly and faithfully believe this to be the truth, I ought to be able to Fred Smith without facing any consequences"

 

[Paul2]

Oh, I don't know. A lot of people believe things without evidence, all of the time. I mean, it is no different than any other conspiracy theory in that regard.

I mentioned two factors that must be taken together.

Also, those two factors are not devoid of context (10,000+ lies Trump told during his presidency, his scams, like Trump Univ., etc., etc.).

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do you think you're entitled to the last word?

As much as anyone else, I'd say. I'm at least entitled to defend my position.

Yes, you are entitled to defend your position which you attempted to do for several pages previously. But then you declared you were 'done with debating' it whereas the others did not. When you didn't get the last word, you whined about "many people suddenly muster the courage to get some jabs in, and further the debate."

As for the rest of your post, whatever.

Yeah, 'whatever' is a usual response by those who realize they've got no legitimate rebuttal.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, do you think there was ever a point where Trump said to himself, "I know I lost this election, fair and square. But I'm going to concoct a plan to keep myself in power, regardless."?

I'm just curious if you believe that. I imagine some do.

Yeah, I think that's exactly what he thought.

Rump: I know I lost the election but all these people are telling me there was massive voter fraud. Maybe there was.

Even if there wasn't some of these people are telling me all I have to do is stop the EC vote certification and I can stay in power.​

I'm pretty certain he believed in that last sentence and at some point he may have begun to believe the first sentence. Regardless, he willfully plotted to overturn the election result.

Then it all came crashing down.

 

[Warp12]

Yeah, I think that's exactly what he thought.

Rump: I know I lost the election but all these people are telling me there was massive voter fraud. Maybe there was.

Even if there wasn't some of these people are telling me all I have to do is stop the EC vote certification and I can stay in power.​

I'm pretty certain he believed in that last sentence and at some point he may have begun to believe the first sentence. Regardless, he willfully plotted to overturn the election result.

Then it all came crashing down.

Do you think there is enough evidence already presented to support this?

Or, will there be? It seems to me that the committee is going to lay something out in great detail. I mean, they pretty much have to, right?

 

[Stacyhs]

Well, do you think there was ever a point where Trump said to himself, "I know I lost this election, fair and square. But I'm going to concoct a plan to keep myself in power, regardless."?

I'm just curious if you believe that. I imagine some do.

I think when he started the entire 'rigged election' claims years before the 2020 election, he was sowing the ground to explain any possible future loss in the same way he told Lesley Stahl that he created the "fake news" bit "so that no one will believe negative stories about (him)" in the press. It was calculated. But as Mary Trump said, "He's the only person I've ever met who can gaslight himself," which he eventually did. He's to the point that he actually believes he won despite incontrovertible evidence he lost. That alone makes him mentally incapable of being the POTUS.

And yes, he and his cronies calculated a 7 step plan to overturn the election:

""President Trump oversaw a sophisticated seven-part plan to overturn the 2020 election and prevent the transition of presidential power.

1. President Trump engaged in a massive effort to spread false and fraudulent information to the American public claiming the 2020 election was stolen from him.

2. President Trump corruptly planned to replace the Acting Attorney General, so that the Department of Justice would support his fake election claims.


3. President Trump corruptly pressured Vice President Pence to refuse to count certified electoral votes in violation of the US Constitution and the law.

4. President Trump corruptly pressured state election officials, and state legislators, to change election results.

5. President Trump's legal team and other Trump associates instructed Republicans in multiple states to create false electoral slates and transmit those slates to Congress and the National Archives.

6. President Trump summoned and assembled a violent mob in Washington and directed them to march on the US Capitol.

7. As the violence was underway, President Trump ignored multiple pleas for assistance and failed to take immediate action to stop the violence and instruct his supporters to leave the Capitol.

 

[acbytesla]

The evidence so far shows that Trump clearly led a conspiracy to overturn the election in dozens of different ways. It shows that this started before the election and continued right up to January 7th. They attempted it with multiple slates of electors. Pressuring election officials, Governors.

January 6th wasn't just a rogue group of protesters. It was a deliberate attempt to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power. The violent mob was an attempt to get Congress and the VP to evacuate the seat of government which they almost did. The buses were there to evacuate Congress. The Secret Service is trying to take Pence to Andrews AFB.

Without these people to count the vote. Trump remains POTUS.

 

[Warp12]

The evidence so far shows that Trump clearly led a conspiracy to overturn the election in dozens of different ways. It shows that this started before the election and continued right up to January 7th. They attempted it with multiple slates of electors. Pressuring election officials, Governors.

January 6th wasn't just a rogue group of protesters. It was a deliberate attempt to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power. The violent mob was an attempt to get Congress and the VP to evacuate the seat of government which they almost did. The buses were there to evacuate Congress. The Secret Service is trying to take Pence to Andrews AFB.

Without these people to count the vote. Trump remains POTUS.

Well, I don't see that. I mean there was still two weeks before the inauguration. So, this seems like just a relatively minor delay in the proceedings. I mean, what is the rest of this master plan, and what will the committee have to support this idea?

 

[stanfr]

Wrong.

Saying that "It's not rigged if I win" discredits any notion.

When did he say that? He won in 2016 and still claimed it was rigged. Unless the vote was 160 million to zero he would say it was rigged, if it were 160 million to one he would claim the one voter (Biden?) was forced at gunpoint to vote against him.

But Trump's confidence was based on nothing, which makes it an odd type of confidence.

So we have

• being confident of something without a shred of evidence
• doing so allows you to play both sides

This adds up to nefarious intent - conscious or not - being more likely.

Nefarious intent and belief are not mutually exclusive, in fact they often go together. And basing one's beliefs on 'nothing' is not odd at all--it is the norm. Why do you think most in the U.S. are deists?

 

[bruto]

I don't "find it hard to believe" in every case. I'm just not convinced of it in this case. Maybe some new evidence will come forth?

Are you saying you are convinced of my proposed scenario? Do you think that happened?

I think it's hard to determine what Trump believes and what he does not, and harder still to determine when he does or doesn't believe anything, since he is malleable and able, it seems, to convince himself of lies and deny truths even when directly presented with them. The problem with your doubt is that it involves two equally nasty alternatives (though they are not mutually exclusive either): To excuse him of the charge of just plain lying pretty much requires that he is delusional and stubbornly immune to reality, if not downright insane. Or, of course, you can consider him quite sane and aware of reality, in which case he's a consciousless liar.

There's no way, I think, that Trump comes out of the scenario we've seen unfolding here smelling good. He lost the election and claimed to win it. He attempted to subvert the democratic process in order to retain power. It's on the record. He spurned advice, and turned on advisors who insisted on recognizing reality and maintaining some integrity. It's on the record. And if his actions and statements were not incitements to violence and insurrection the only excuse is to aver that he was clueless about the supporters he had cultivated and incited over and over again, unaware of what he was saying, out of touch with reality, and, in short, dumb as a brick.

It's the same old dilemma. If you want to excuse Trump of malfeasance, the only real alternative is to attribute his actions to incompetence.

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It doesn't matter what he believed when it came to stopping the electoral ballot count process which is a felony obstruction charge. He had no legal basis for doing so despite what he personally believed.

Well, gosh darn it, it matters to me.

Why? As I said "He had no legal basis for doing so despite what he personally believed." He could personally believe he's the Pope but that doesn't give him the legal right to move into the Vatican and he'd still get thrown out.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, I don't see that. I mean there was still two weeks before the inauguration. So, this seems like just a relatively minor delay in the proceedings. I mean, what is the rest of this master plan, and what will the committee have to support this idea?

It might have been just a minor delay. But that was Trump’s plan. You can see it in everything that happened. Why is Secret Service attempting to take Pence to Andrews? Why? Because Anthony Ornato a Trump sycophant is somehow overseeing Secret Service movements. Something he has no expertise for and is totally unqualified. But Pence refused to get in the car.

Trump and his mininions organize the rally.
Stir up the attendees telling them to fight and do battle.
Trump allies prevented proper security.
Then Trump watches the mayhem on TV for 5 hours. He doesn’t call up the troops. He does absolutely nothing. Despite pleas from everybody including his daughter, Kushner, Pence and others.

The January 6 committee has all of this and more. Eastman is the architect of the strategy.