The Jan. 6 Investigation

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I don't "find it hard to believe" in every case. I'm just not convinced of it in this case. Maybe some new evidence will come forth?

Are you saying you are convinced of my proposed scenario? Do you think that happened?

I think that once he saw that the morons who love him were willing to support this lie, he abetted and even encouraged it.

He's too cowardly to stick his own neck out, but he'll let others do it for him if the wind blows that way.
 
Well, do you think there was ever a point where Trump said to himself, "I know I lost this election, fair and square. But I'm going to concoct a plan to keep myself in power, regardless."?

I'm just curious if you believe that. I imagine some do.

I am CERTAIN that Trump decided to concoct a plan to stay in power NO MATTER WHAT the outcome of the election.
And do you know how I know?

Because Stop The Steal set up and ready to go in 2016, and Trump, Bannon, Guiliani and Stone have said that an election that Trump didn't win was illegitimate since back then.

So **** his State of Mind when he was never going to accept the integrity of Elections anyway.
 
Well, do you think there was ever a point where Trump said to himself, "I know I lost this election, fair and square. But I'm going to concoct a plan to keep myself in power, regardless."?

I'm just curious if you believe that. I imagine some do.

Personally, I think like that is like trying to determine if a famous psychic believes their own lies. Most say they know they are lying, but I think in many cases the person convinces themself of their own delusions. Trumps malignant narcissism literally could not handle the fact that he lost. In order to maintain what little functioning sanity he has, his psyche has to be convinced that he won. If he concedes he lost, it would be fatal to his ego.
 
Personally, I think like that is like trying to determine if a famous psychic believes their own lies. Most say they know they are lying, but I think in many cases the person convinces themself of their own delusions. Trumps malignant narcissism literally could not handle the fact that he lost. In order to maintain what little functioning sanity he has, his psyche has to be convinced that he won. If he concedes he lost, it would be fatal to his ego.


Yeah, I think that is a much more likely scenario than him conceding that he lost, but being determined to stay in power anyway. I think he really believes his claims of a stolen election.
 
Yeah, I think that is a much more likely scenario than him conceding that he lost, but being determined to stay in power anyway. I think he really believes his claims of a stolen election.

You are wrong.

Trump and his posse, since Obama, have declared that US elections are rigged if Democrats win. He said so in 2016, explicitly.

There was no scenario in which he would have accepted a loss, none.
 
Yeah, I think that is a much more likely scenario than him conceding that he lost, but being determined to stay in power anyway. I think he really believes his claims of a stolen election.

You are wrong.

Trump and his posse, since Obama, have declared that US elections are rigged if Democrats win. He said so in 2016, explicitly.

There was no scenario in which he would have accepted a loss, none.


I am pretty certain that Trump believes that the Dems stole 2020. Saying that he has maintained a position suggesting Dem election fraud for a long time does not discredit that notion, in the least.
 
Yeah, I think that is a much more likely scenario than him conceding that he lost, but being determined to stay in power anyway. I think he really believes his claims of a stolen election.
There is a very significant equivocation going on between believing the election was stolen based on even flimsy evidence, and believing the election was stolen because one is so narcissistic and egotistical that one convinces oneself that the election was stolen despite multiple demonstrations - from supporters, even - that the election wasn't stolen.

Let's not conflate the two ends of that continuum.
 
Of what significance are her beliefs?
What did Trump believe? That is a more relevant question, imo.
If you had been paying attention before the hearing you would know that Ivanka twice (IIRC at the desperate behest of Meadows), tried to talk Rump into calling the mob at the Capitol off.

If you missed that I'm sure the committee will play that part of her interview. It goes to the dereliction of duty charge against Rump. And that goes to charges the mob at the Capitol was part of Rump's plan to stop the certification of Biden's presidency.

In Rump's fantasy stopping the Jan 6 certification 'ritual' would somehow result in his maintaining the presidency. He imagined a number of scenarios in this fantasy most involving tossing out 4-5 states' election results. We'll hear about these fantasies in the coming weeks as the hearings go on. I believe declaring martial law was part of Rump's imagining himself staying in power. And there was mention of using the Insurrection Act.

I say fantasy because I think that's exactly what drove Rump to carry out this criminal endeavor. Certain people around him fed this narrative and Rump ate it up. Or maybe the fact Rump was eating it up led certain people to echo the fantasy. I'm not sure what people like Clark and Eastman were imagining would happen but I'm guessing they bought into the fantasy.
 
You are wrong.

Trump and his posse, since Obama, have declared that US elections are rigged if Democrats win. He said so in 2016, explicitly.

There was no scenario in which he would have accepted a loss, none.

Let's say it like this: Trump was determined to stay in power no matter what, regardless of whether he thought the election was rigged or not. Hell, he *won* the 2016 election fair and square and *still* claimed it was rigged.

Claiming the election is rigged, whether you win it or not, and whether you even know if you have won it or not, is playing both sides against the middle. If you win, you've won. If you don't win, you have your accusation of rigging and you play that card.
 
Trump couldn't understand the physics of the holes in paper punch cards in 1961, it's quite possible that he actually believed Air Gapped machines not connected in anyway to the Internet were hacked from China. But I think it's more likely Trump wants Plausible Deniability for his Crimes and that's why he surrounded himself Constantly with Idiots.

Fun fact: Two of the states which had voting machines not 'air gapped' were Kentucky and South Carolina. I'll let the thread readers ponder the implications of that.

NBC Jan 2020: 'Online and vulnerable': Experts find nearly three dozen U.S. voting systems connected to internet
A team of election security experts used a “Google for servers” to challenge claims that voting machines do not connect to the internet and found some did. ...

But that is an overstatement, according to a team of 10 independent cybersecurity experts who specialize in voting systems and elections. While the voting machines themselves are not designed to be online, the larger voting systems in many states end up there, putting the voting process at risk.

That team of election security experts say that last summer, they discovered some systems are, in fact, online.

“We found over 35 [voting systems] had been left online and we’re still continuing to find more,” Kevin Skoglund, a senior technical advisor at the election security advocacy group National Election Defense Coalition, told NBC News.
That was before the 2020 election so give me a minute to find out if there were changes in Nov 2020. Make that a couple of minutes, I have to wade through all the BS websites claiming massive voter fraud occurred.

ETA: It's a deep rabbit hole. It'll be a bit longer to sort.
 
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Claiming the election is rigged, whether you win it or not, and whether you even know if you have won it or not, is playing both sides against the middle. If you win, you've won. If you don't win, you have your accusation of rigging and you play that card.


That's one way to view it. Another way to view would be that if you are confident of election tampering, whether you win or lose does not change the "fact" that it exists.
 
I am pretty certain that Trump believes that the Dems stole 2020. Saying that he has maintained a position suggesting Dem election fraud for a long time does not discredit that notion, in the least.

I'm pretty certain that Trump doesn't actually care much about who legitimately won 2020, at least so far as it comes to what he says. So long as he saw advantage in proclaiming it to be stolen if he lost, that's what he was going to do. Advantage there is for him both now and in 2016. A rather remarkable amount of the donations going in his direction have been funneled into paying his legal bills, for example.
 
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You must have missed the part where I stated I was done with the partisanship debate. Sorry, Johnny Karate...time stands still for no man.

Okay, so you're done with that debate. Do you have any opinion about anything else related to the hearings? Such as whether you find the testimony convincing and whether you think it revealed an unlawful plan by Trump or close supporters to overturn the results?
 
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I am pretty certain that Trump believes that the Dems stole 2020.

He said Lyin' Ted stole the Iowa caucus in 2016. He also suggested Cruz's father may have had something to do with JFK's assassination. Do you think he believes those things? If so, why would Cruz's nickname at some point change from "Lyin' Ted" to "Beautiful Ted"? Trump's comically self-serving. Inasmuch as he actually believes these ridiculous lies, he's mentally disabled.
 
To believe that Pelosi had "nothing to do" with the two refusals of the requests to use National Guard (NG) troops to help guard the Capitol on January 6, you would have to assume that the House Sergeant at Arms twice rejected those requests without bothering to consult with Pelosi, a very unlikely scenario.

Again :rolleyes: The house leader has NO POWER TO REQUEST OR REFUSE THE DEPLOYMENT OF THE NATIONAL GUARD TO THE CAPITOL. Even the VP does not have that power.

Your lying source is lying to you!

January 6 was the day the Senate would certify the Electoral College results.

See, you do not even know the most basic facts about US politics. The Senate does not count EC votes, CONGRESS does, the WHOLE of congress - the House and the Senate... (3 USC § 15 ). The counting of electoral votes in Congress is a combined session FFS

The whole world knew that a massive protest was going to occur and that tensions were sky high. It boggles the mind to suggest that the House Sergeant at Arms would make such an enormous decision on security without consulting with his boss, Pelosi. I find such a scenario incredibly hard to believe.

No such decision was made.

POTUS is the only person with the power to deploy the National Guard to the Capitol, and that lazy Fat Orange Turd did not make a single phone call to anyone during the Insurrection, let alone, call in the National Guard.

Remember that it was Pelosi who ordered NG troops to guard the Capitol *after* January 6. She kept them there for five months, long after there was any credible reason for making them stay there. Yet, we are supposed to believe that she had nothing to do with the rejections of the requests to use NG troops to help guard the Capitol on January 6.

More lies you are being gulled with from your lying source

And what about the documented evidence that one of Schumer's top aides received credible, specific FBI intel that some of the protestors would storm the Capitol? Here, too, it boggles the mind to believe that the aide did not immediately discuss this intel with Schumer. Yet, neither Schumer nor the aide shared that intel with the Capitol police, nor did they act on that intel. Schumer surely was advised of the intel, and his failure to act clearly suggests that he wanted the riot to occur because he knew the Democrats could use it as a propaganda weapon against Trump and the Republicans.

Again, there was no such documentation. It never happened.

As a deep purple Independent

Bwahahahaha. You're a dedicated sycophant who has clearly and obviously shown unending blind loyalty to The Fat Orange Turd... and now you would have us believe that you're a "deep purple Independent"?
:sdl: :sdl: :sdl: :sdl: :sdl: :sdl: ........

There are not enough laughing dogs to respond to that BS

If you think you are deep purple, maybe you should reconsider. If you keep listening to that Castle Full Of Rascals at "Just the News", and that Bloodsucker John Solomon, you'll end up Blind with a Bad Attitude. You'll end up a Living Wreck, and before long, there will be men in white coats Knocking At Your Back Door.

... Pelosi and Schumer clearly seemed to want the riot to occur, given Schumer's failure to act on the FBI intel and given Pelosi's apparent refusal to allow NG troops to be used to help guard the Capitol.

Yeah, Pelosi was eager to let people who wanted to put a bullet in her head, into the place where she works? Got it! :rolleyes:


...and right here, you have demonstrated what your two biggest problems are.

1. The moment any reasonable person sees "Just the News" as the "source", then they can dismiss out of hand, whatever is being claimed from that source. "Just the News" is not a source of information, its a source of far right, ultra conservative disinformation, misinformation and lies. It has been caught by fact checkers on numerous occasions, making claims that are both evidentially and verifiably false.

2. As long as you keep living in your far-right echo chamber, using "Just the News" as your only source, you will make no headway here. Try Godlike Productions, they are more your style!
 
I am pretty certain that Trump believes that the Dems stole 2020. Saying that he has maintained a position suggesting Dem election fraud for a long time does not discredit that notion, in the least.

Wrong.

Saying that "It's not rigged if I win" discredits any notion.
 
That's one way to view it. Another way to view would be that if you are confident of election tampering, whether you win or lose does not change the "fact" that it exists.
But Trump's confidence was based on nothing, which makes it an odd type of confidence.

So we have
  • being confident of something without a shred of evidence
  • doing so allows you to play both sides
This adds up to nefarious intent - conscious or not - being more likely.
 
Wrong.

Saying that "It's not rigged if I win" discredits any notion.


Sorry GZ, I'm afraid your position against me is of little merit. You can call my position "wrong" all you want, but it is at least as plausible a reality as what you proclaim as fact.
 
Statements against interest are (slightly?) more likely to be true than the opposite. It's not determinative, just indicative.

Indeed.

It would be hard to find a more glaring example of a statement against interest than a Trump going against another Trump. Just ask Mary what happened to her father Robert after he went against Fred's wishes!
 
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