Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[d4m10n]

The effect is, like it says on the tin, blocking puberty.

Other effects may include "headaches, hot flushes, weight gain, tiredness, low mood and anxiety...hort-term reduction in bone density" and possibly "long-term musculoskeletal impact" as well.

Also, importantly, > 95% chance of proceeding to cross-sex hormones rather than simply unpausing and allowing natural puberty to commence. This means that the physiological effects of cross-sex puberty (e.g. anorgasmia, infertility) will most likely follow from the decision to pause and reflect by using puberty blockers.

 

[mumblethrax]

Puberty which happens too early doesn’t produce normal results.

Puberty which happens too late doesn’t produce normal results.

Neither of these is reversible.

Utterly ridiculous. Nobody claims that puberty, at any stage, is reversible.

The effects of using puberty blockers is not reversible. The claim that they are is a lie, and a transparent one at that.

Also ridiculous. You're still acting like saying "puberty blockers are reversible" commits you to the entailment that time is reversible. This is not a pragmatically competent gloss.

The only thing "puberty blockers are reversible" means is that puberty can later be unblocked. Which is true.

Christ, talk about transparent.

Other effects may include "headaches, hot flushes, weight gain, tiredness, low mood and anxiety...hort-term reduction in bone density" and possibly "long-term musculoskeletal impact" as well.

And?

Also, importantly, > 95% chance of proceeding to cross-sex hormones rather than simply unpausing and allowing natural puberty to commence. This means that the physiological effects of cross-sex puberty (e.g. anorgasmia, infertility) will most likely follow from the decision to pause and reflect by using puberty blockers.

You think prescribing puberty blockers to delay precocious puberty has a >95% chance of causing a procession to cross-sex hormones?

It's like people are competing to have the dumbest take.

 

[d4m10n]

You think prescribing puberty blockers to delay precocious puberty has a >95% chance of causing a procession to cross-sex hormones?

Yes, and I linked to my source for that claim.

ETA: Here is a better link, straight to the PDF; see footnotes 38 & 39.

 

[mumblethrax]

Yes, and I linked to my source for that claim.

Read what I said again. Slowly, if necessary.

 

[d4m10n]

Read what I said again. Slowly, if necessary.

Fair enough, I missed "precocious" there.

I was thinking of a different, off-label use somewhat more relevant to the topic of this thread.

 

[theprestige]

Utterly ridiculous. Nobody claims that puberty, at any stage, is reversible.


Also ridiculous. You're still acting like saying "puberty blockers are reversible" commits you to the entailment that time is reversible. This is not a pragmatically competent gloss.

The only thing "puberty blockers are reversible" means is that puberty can later be unblocked. Which is true.

The process that is unblocked when puberty blockers are discontinued is not a normal, healthy, puberty process. It does not result in "puberty, only a couple years later." It results in "puberty, but substantially disordered in permanent ways."

You're not holding off on puberty until the patient can figure out if they want to pubesce as male or female. You're making irreversible, unhealthy changes to how the patient will pubesce. It's not a successful transsexual pubescence. It's a failed or abnormal cissexual pubescence. And that result is irreversible.

In short, in the ways that actually matter to medical practitioners, prepubescent children, and the guardians of those children, puberty blockers are irreversible.

This needs to be made clear, not elided.

 

[Elaedith]

Utterly ridiculous. Nobody claims that puberty, at any stage, is reversible.


Also ridiculous. You're still acting like saying "puberty blockers are reversible" commits you to the entailment that time is reversible. This is not a pragmatically competent gloss.

The only thing "puberty blockers are reversible" means is that puberty can later be unblocked. Which is true.

The claim being disputed is that the effects of puberty blockade are reversible. That is a claim that any effects of blocking puberty will apply only while it is blocked, and when puberty resumes the final outcome will be the same as if it had not been blocked.

 

[Ziggurat]

Utterly ridiculous. Nobody claims that puberty, at any stage, is reversible.

You aren't understanding me.

If you go through puberty too early, the effects will not be the same as going through puberty at a normal time. The difference is not reversible. Delaying precocious puberty therefore creates permanent changes compared to not delaying precocious puberty.

If you go through puberty too late, the effects will not be the same as going through puberty at a normal time. The difference is not reversible. Delaying normal puberty therefore creates permanent changes compared to not delaying regular puberty.

The point is not that puberty isn't reversible. The point is that changing the timing of puberty creates irreversible changes. Those changes are beneficial when you delay precocious puberty into regular puberty, but they are detrimental when you delay regular puberty into delayed puberty. But beneficial or detrimental, the effects of delaying relative to no delay are not reversible. And it was always an obvious lie to ever claim that it was.

The only thing "puberty blockers are reversible" means is that puberty can later be unblocked. Which is true.

No, that is absolutely not what it means. It's used to try to convince parents that there's basically no risk and no cost to using puberty blockers to treat gender confusion. That's the purpose. That's why that claim is NEVER followed by any description of the effects of delayed puberty. It's used intentionally as an attempt to deny that there are any significant effects of such a delay.

Christ, talk about transparent.

That's ironic.

 

[mumblethrax]

The claim being disputed is that the effects of puberty blockade are reversible.

No, that's not the claim being disputed.

"What always struck me as weird about the claim that puberty blockers are reversible [...]"

 

[Elaedith]

No, that's not the claim being disputed.

"What always struck me as weird about the claim that puberty blockers are reversible [...]"

The claim that you directly responded to in your post was:

Puberty which happens too early doesn’t produce normal results.

Puberty which happens too late doesn’t produce normal results.

Neither of these is reversible. The effects of using puberty blockers is not reversible. The claim that they are is a lie, and a transparent one at that.

 

[Ziggurat]

The claim being disputed is that the effects of puberty blockade are reversible.

No, that's not the claim being disputed.

"What always struck me as weird about the claim that puberty blockers are reversible [...]"

Seriously? That's what you're hung up on, that I didn't explicitly say "effects"?

I didn't say that explicitly in that post because I thought that was obvious, that I didn't need to. If you're not talking about the effects of a treatment, then basically ANY treatment is reversible, in the sense that you can just stop administering it. Big whoop. That doesn't mean anything. That's not what people care about. Elaedith is right about what I meant, and you're wrong.

 

[mumblethrax]

You aren't understanding me.

I understand you just fine.

What you're saying is ridiculous.

The point is that changing the timing of puberty creates irreversible changes.

And that has nothing to do with the fact that puberty blockers are, themselves, reversible.

Those changes are beneficial when you delay precocious puberty into regular puberty, but they are detrimental when you delay regular puberty into delayed puberty.

In both cases, puberty blockers have both beneficial and detrimental effects.

No, that is absolutely not what it means.

That is what it means. What you assert it's used to do is an entirely separate question.

That's ironic.

Yes, it is ironic that you accuse others of transparent lies.

 

[Ziggurat]

And that has nothing to do with the fact that puberty blockers are, themselves, reversible.

Only in a narrow and irrelevant sense that no one is actually using.

When a clinic tells parents that puberty blockers are reversible, and then DOESN'T tell the parents that there are irreversible consequences of using puberty blockers or what those irreversible consequences are, that's not informed consent. That's medical malpractice.

 

[Olmstead]

Death reverses everything.

 

[mumblethrax]

I didn't say that explicitly in that post because I thought that was obvious, that I didn't need to.

I'm not hung up on it. It's just true. This is the claim you were responding to.

If you're not talking about the effects of a treatment, then basically ANY treatment is reversible, in the sense that you can just stop administering it.

The primary effect of puberty blockers is to block puberty. This effect is reversible. This is the principle thing people care about. You can tell by the way that it's what they prescribe them to do. Telling people puberty blockers are reversible just means that this effect (blocking puberty) isn't permanent.

This is not true of all other treatments, or even all other hormone treatments.

 

[mumblethrax]

Only in a narrow and irrelevant sense that no one is actually using.

It is literally the most relevant sense--the puberty blocking effect of puberty blockers is reversible. It is in fact what the Endocrine Society and others mean by "reversible."

You're claiming that saying so also entails that the fact of having taken puberty blockers is reversible. Nobody believes that to be the case.

When a clinic tells parents that puberty blockers are reversible, and then DOESN'T tell the parents that there are irreversible consequences of using puberty blockers or what those irreversible consequences are, that's not informed consent. That's medical malpractice.

Are you aware of any clinicians who don't tell patients in their care about the consequences of taking puberty blockers? If not, this seems irrelevant.

 

[Ziggurat]

It is literally the most relevant sense--the puberty blocking effect of puberty blockers is reversible. It is in fact what the Endocrine Society and others mean by "reversible."

That is literally NOT the most relevant sense. Parents and children considering puberty blockers want to know if there are permanent consequences to using them. And there are. But these permanent consequences are being denied whenever the claim is made that they are reversible, because those consequences are not reversible. And nobody making the claim that they are reversible is also telling parents and children about these permanent consequences. Any time the claim of reversibility is made, that's as far as it goes. That's the entire point of making that claim: to say that there aren't any irreversible consequences.

You're claiming that saying so also entails that the fact of having taken puberty blockers is reversible. Nobody believes that to be the case.

The fact of having taken puberty blockers isn't the irreversible consequence of interest. That is literally irrelevant to everyone. Stunted growth, impaired cognition, infertility, the inability to experience organsim, these are permanent consequences of taking puberty blockers to halt regular puberty that actually matter.

Are you aware of any clinicians who don't tell patients in their care about the consequences of taking puberty blockers? If not, this seems irrelevant.

Yes. Every single clinician who claims that they are reversible. I have never seen any exception, and you will not find any exception, because the claim isn't used the way you are trying to argue that it is used.

 

[Ziggurat]

The primary effect of puberty blockers is to block puberty. This effect is reversible.

No, it isn't, because when it resumes at a different time, it doesn't have the same effect. The fact that the same word may be used doesn't make it the same thing. And again: that's the entire point of using it to prevent precocious puberty. Delayed puberty is not the same as undelayed puberty. The change is irreversible. You cannot go back and have undelayed puberty, or even the same effects as undelayed puberty.

 

[theprestige]

The primary effect of puberty blockers is to block puberty. This effect is reversible.

This right here is exactly the lie that needs to be debunked.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The effect is, like it says on the tin, blocking puberty. I'd think you would eventually want to reverse that.

FYI, that's actually NOT what the drugs say on the tin. Their approved usage is as treatment for cancer. They are used off-label to block puberty. The most commonly used puberty blocker is Lupron, which was developed to treat testicular cancer, and it blocks the production of sex hormones. It might be useful for you to go look into the side effects of Lupron.