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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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theprestige said:
For the record, I care a lot about women in prison, and in other places as well. My view is that women in sports is easily accessible, as you say. It's also got incontrovertible statistical evidence to work with. You don't have to waste any time dealing with "evidence?" and "I don't trust that researcher" and "that journal is compromised". You can get straight to the data and its implications.

Therefore, my view is also that answering the sports question will necessarily answer all the other questions. I think this is why TRAs are standing firm on "sports doesn't matter". Because if sports does matter, then the sports problem has to be solved instead of ignored. And the same exact factors that make sports a problem make prisons a problem, and shelters a problem.

And the solution to the sports problem ends up being the same solution for all the other problems. At which point it becomes pretty clear that as a practical matter, where it counts, where there are problems in need of solutions, transwomen simply are not women.

And that's the end of the controversy. That's the end of the push to normalize men in women's prisons.
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This is a very, very good point.
 
lionking said:

This is a very, very good point.
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Although it does deprive us of the tragicomedy that is, "the solution to women's prisons is to first solve every other problem in society that leads to violent criminals being imprisoned, and then we can safely rehabilitate transwomen alongside women, where they belong, but until that day, women just have to suck it."
 
Rolfe said:
I've been shocked by how little anyone seems to care about women in prison.
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Part of that is the visibility issue. Part of it is that there is such an easy dodge, which is to say that everyone in prison should be safe.

In practice, that dodge ends up being what theprestige said, specifically, "Until that day, women will just have to suck it."
 
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Meadmaker said:
Part of that is the visibility issue. Part of it is that there is such an easy dodge, which is to say that everyone in prison should be safe.

In practice, that dodge ends up being what theprestige said, specifically, "Until that day, women will just have to suck it."
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An part of that is that nobody seems to care much about people who end up in prison, male or female. It should be a scandal, there should be a strong social movement to improve the living conditions and safety in prisons, but for some reason it never gets much push...
 
Ohio anti-trans law to keep trans kids out of sports will subject accused children to genital inspection.

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/politics/ohio-politics/ohio-gop-passes-bill-aiming-to-root-out-suspected-transgender-female-athletes-through-genital-inspection

considering there's only currently one trans girl playing in Ohio sports, this law seems destined to subject more cis girls to humiliating and invasive unnecessary medical exams than prohibit trans girls from participation.

There is only one transgender girl in the state that is currently participating in high school athletics, according to Equality Ohio and the Ohio High School Athletic Association (OSHAA).
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Section C has the verification process if accused of being trans.
- External and internal genitalia evaluation
- Testosterone level check
- Genetic makeup test
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Sorry to all the cis girls who will be targeted by spurious and malicious accusations requiring them to undergo penis inspections and blood work to play sports, but the hatred of trans kids takes first priority.
 
Is anybody really trying to "keep trans kids out of sports"? Or rather, are they trying to ensure fairness by mandating that every child compete in the events appropriate to his or her biological sex? At the risk of being repetitive, bodies play sports, not gender identities.

I agree that "drop your panties" is a horrible idea, if they are really proposing to do this. As you say, this is likely to put anyone who is subjected to it off playing sports, full stop. On the other hand, maybe boys should accept that they ought not to try to compete against girls in the first place? (Caster Semenya spoke about having to undergo the "drop your panties" thing regularly, and how humiliating it was, and whatever one thinks of that particular situation it really is not an acceptable way to treat a teenage girl under any circumstances.)

On the other hand, it should be trivially easy to check anyone's genetic makeup with minimal invasion or embarrassment. A blood sample isn't necessary, a saliva sample or cheek swab will do it. A friend of mine was in the Scottish team for the Commonwealth Games in the 1970s (long jumper) and she told me about how it was done then. Women had a couple of hairs plucked from their heads and the analysis was done on the hair root/follicle. The problem she and a couple of other women in the Scottish team had was that their hair kept breaking off rather than pulling out at the root (Celtic hair is quite fine/brittle) and they were called back several times and people began to talk...

That arrangement (doing the test at the actual athletics meet) seems daft to me. Genetics don't change. Nobody suddenly acquires a Y chromosome in their late teens. Just do the cheek swab thing once when athletes are juniors, and unless there is impersonation, you're good.

The real issue with this concerns girls with DSDs, especially those who may not know they have such a condition. I believe one of the reasons this was stopped in the 1990s was that a woman who tested positive for the SRY gene was very insensitively handled and committed suicide. So it needs careful thought, not a bull-in-a-china-shop approach. Arguably anyone with a DSD condition will benefit from early diagnosis and access to appropriate counselling and mental health services, so this isn't an argument for not doing it at all. But the inevitability of turning up a few such cases has to be factored into the system and appropriate measures put in place to support these girls once the diagnosis has been made.
 
Rolfe said:
Is anybody really trying to "keep trans kids out of sports"? Or rather, are they trying to ensure fairness by mandating that every child compete in the events appropriate to his or her biological sex? At the risk of being repetitive, bodies play sports, not gender identities.

I agree that "drop your panties" is a horrible idea, if they are really proposing to do this. As you say, this is likely to put anyone who is subjected to it off playing sports, full stop. On the other hand, maybe boys should accept that they ought not to try to compete against girls in the first place? (Caster Semenya spoke about having to undergo the "drop your panties" thing regularly, and how humiliating it was, and whatever one thinks of that particular situation it really is not an acceptable way to treat a teenage girl under any circumstances.)

On the other hand, it should be trivially easy to check anyone's genetic makeup with minimal invasion or embarrassment. A blood sample isn't necessary, a saliva sample or cheek swab will do it. A friend of mine was in the Scottish team for the Commonwealth Games in the 1970s (long jumper) and she told me about how it was done then. Women had a couple of hairs plucked from their heads and the analysis was done on the hair root/follicle. The problem she and a couple of other women in the Scottish team had was that their hair kept breaking off rather than pulling out at the root (Celtic hair is quite fine/brittle) and they were called back several times and people began to talk...

That arrangement (doing the test at the actual athletics meet) seems daft to me. Genetics don't change. Nobody suddenly acquires a Y chromosome in their late teens. Just do the cheek swab thing once when athletes are juniors, and unless there is impersonation, you're good.

The real issue with this concerns girls with DSDs, especially those who may not know they have such a condition. I believe one of the reasons this was stopped in the 1990s was that a woman who tested positive for the SRY gene was very insensitively handled and committed suicide. So it needs careful thought, not a bull-in-a-china-shop approach. Arguably anyone with a DSD condition will benefit from early diagnosis and access to appropriate counselling and mental health services, so this isn't an argument for not doing it at all. But the inevitability of turning up a few such cases has to be factored into the system and appropriate measures put in place to support these girls once the diagnosis has been made.
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I'm not seeing an "or" statement in the law. The plain reading of the text requires all three tests, including penis inspection, to be performed by a physician.
 
The phrase "if a participant's sex is disputed" seems remarkably vague for a legal document. I didn't see anywhere a definition of what this means in practice. "Disputed" by whom? What procedure would someone have to go through to "dispute" a participant's sex?

It talks a lot about relief for people adversely affected by violations of this section (i.e. girls who are pushed out of teams or winning positions by trans girls), but nothing about relief for girls who are forced to go through checks of their reproductive anatomy, testosterone levels and genetic make-up for no good reason. Nor does it have anything to say about who should pay for such checks, or how much they might cost.

In any other country I'd say this wouldn't stand up in court for more than a few seconds, but this is America, so who knows.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Sorry to all the cis girls who will be targeted by spurious and malicious accusations requiring them to undergo penis inspections and blood work to play sports, but the hatred of trans kids takes first priority.
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Ever had a hernia check as part of a routine physical? It's the sort of thing that athletes have dealt with for quite a while now, presumably because of hatred against them, if I'm following your reasoning here.

All that said, cheek swab or saliva sample is the best way to go.
 
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d4m10n said:
Ever had a hernia check as part of a routine physical? It's the sort of thing that athletes have dealt with for quite a while now, presumably because of hatred against them, if I'm following your reasoning here.

All that said, cheek swab or saliva sample is the best way to go.
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My understanding is that teen and younger girls love being accused of being crypto-men, and they rarely suffer from anxiety about their appearance or budding sexuality. /s

School sports are famous for bringing out extremely petty and malicious behavior in people, namely parents. If you don't think bad-faith accusations will be made to harass an opposing team's star player, you're a fool.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
My understanding is that teen and younger girls love being accused of being crypto-men, and they rarely suffer from anxiety about their appearance or budding sexuality. /s

School sports are famous for bringing out extremely petty and malicious behavior in people, namely parents. If you don't think bad-faith accusations will be made to harass an opposing team's star player, you're a fool.
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For once, an ST post in this thread I completely agree with.

Test all the girls with a cheek swab, say once they turn fifteen, in confidence, and be prepared to deal sensitively and competently with any unexpected results.

I think this is a good idea in principle to be honest, because it would nip the Caster Semenya situations in the bud, whether they are in complete good faith or not. (One suspects not, in the Semenya case, but that's not on topic.)

But on the other hand, people who know perfectly well that they're male should not be trying to insert themselves into female events, end of.
 
Rolfe said:
For once, an ST post in this thread I completely agree with.

Test all the girls with a cheek swab, say once they turn fifteen, in confidence, and be prepared to deal sensitively and competently with any unexpected results.

I think this is a good idea in principle to be honest, because it would nip the Caster Semenya situations in the bud, whether they are in complete good faith or not. (One suspects not, in the Semenya case, but that's not on topic.)

But on the other hand, people who know perfectly well that they're male should not be trying to insert themselves into female events, end of.
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Worth pointing out that the tiny number of actual trans athletes (1 a year for the entire state of ohio) is going to be dwarfed by the unintended yet foreseeable consequences of such an action. This law is going to negatively impact more cis-girls than trans athletes.

It's almost as if these right wing transphobes aren't good feminist allies. Much to consider.
 
They're idiots, and nasty with it. They have the right idea that female athletics should be confined to people who are female. They have seriously got the wrong idea about how to go about it, and seem entirely oblivious of the law of unintended consequences.

Mostly, everyone knows who is male and who is female. The boys who are wannabe girls won't try to compete in the girls' events in that climate. It's a sledghammer to crack a nut, which will end up cracking some things it wasn't intended to crack too.
 
What ST seems to be struggling with is our perception that unpleasant people can take a cause that is just and pervert it to their own unpleasant ends. He insists that the involvement of these unpleasant people doing unpleasant things should lead us to conclude that the cause is not, after all, just, but that simply does not compute.
 
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