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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Sideroxylon said:
For me, I would rather not be a bastard and tell people they are mentally ill or pretending in how they express fundamentals of their self identity. Life is too short and too ambiguous to be a nasty culture war **** to others.
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I'd rather not be a bastard and tell females that their consent and their boundaries aren't as important as the feelings of males.
 
Sideroxylon said:
Mental illness is a socially constructed concept with an interesting history and and used with, nuance, prudence and pragmatic definitions with aware compassionate utility in the field of mental health. We can ignore its unreflective weaponised use manifest here.
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Tell that to my bipolar sister, or to my bff's schizophrenic brother. "Socially constructed" my wide white ass.
 
Sideroxylon said:
Can girls* who sexualise the context or fail to respect the modesty of others use the space?

“great” And why is it that we move so swiftly away from not being a bastard?
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In this thread, a male tells females that they don't have a right to refuse to let males look at them naked, because they let some other females look at them naked.

Seriously, this is rhetorical calvinball. To make this statement with any degree of sincerity, you have to assume that females sexualize other females at the same rate and pervasiveness that males sexualize females... AND you also have to assume that females commit sexual assault and inappropriate sexual behaviors like voyeurisms and exhibitionism at the same rate as males... AND you have to assume that the risk of a female being able to forcibly dominate and sexually assault another female is the same as the risk of a male being able to do so.
 
Sideroxylon said:
It all comes back to this. Not being a bastard in this context is the hill I die on start being rude from as it is too fundamental to my personal moral aesthetic and empathy.
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So why doesn't your moral aesthetic and empathy extend to females? Why do you think that being a bastard to females is acceptable as a general position?

Sideroxylon said:
This a cruel and horrible debate and war on self identity expression.
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No, it is not. It's a debate on whether or not the self-identity and expression of some males is a sufficient goal to override the rights, safety, and dignity of females.

Is the self-identity and expression of a male athlete sufficient reason to materially disadvantage female athletes? Is the self-identity and expression of a male prisoner sufficient reason to place female prisoners at risk? Is the self-identity and expression of a high school male sufficient reason to violate the boundaries and consent of all high school females?
 
Rolfe said:
This post in another thread is quite relevant here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13823471#post13823471

Basically that thing that never happens happened again. A young man, just short of his 18th birthday, "identified as" a woman, went into the women's lavatories, forced a ten-year old girl into a toilet stall and sexually assaulted her.

The outrage seems to be focussed on the fact that the man, who is now 26, is being tried as a juvenile and at worst will get a short spell in a young offender's institute and might escape prison altogether, due to the age thing.

The fact that a man in women's clothing who tried to rape a ten-year-old girl in what should have been the safe space of the Ladies room is now being referred to as "she" and the crime being reported as a woman committing a sexual assault, and that if he does get that spell in the young offender's institute he will be locked up with a bunch of troubled adolescent girls seems to be escaping scrutiny.
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Some corrections - Tubbs did not identify as a woman when they assaulted the 10 year old female, and in fact did not identify as a woman until AFTER they were arrested for that rape. Tubbs was not dressed in women's clothing when they raped the 10-yo female.

It was a pretty transparently blatant attempt to game the system by claiming to be trans after the fact, in order to secure a more comfortable prison sentence.
 
Emily's Cat said:
And it aligns with how dysphoria has been described to me by some old-school transsexuals - the shock and disorientation of looking down and seeing a penis that never goes away, because their brain is absolutely convinced that it doesn't belong there.
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This brings me back to something I'm not really certain about. The possibility that there really exists a small number of people for whom this is purely a body dysmorphia thing and not sexual. The people we might call old-school transsexuals.

I am not convinced about this, because the people I thought of as being "old-school transsexuals" before all this mess blew up have mostly revealed themselves to be AGP, but AGP men who had learned to conceal it better because of the general climate when they "came out". There is huge pressure not to admit to AGP in particular as being the thing driving transition, and indeed a huge amount of shame at the thought of admitting it. So people tell themselves (and others) stories that admit of a different narrative.

But in the end it makes little difference to my point of view. I can see no way to include just this small subset of trans-identifying males into women's intimate spaces, legally, even if we wanted to do it and I'm not at all sure that we do. That's how it was thirty years ago, but the male psychologists who decided to do it never asked women, they just did it then told us to be kind, and assured us it was just this tiny number of men who had had surgery and been thoroughly vetted for safety and instructed on how to behave so as not to upset women.

I don't know if this was ever valid. I suspect there have always been fetishists taking advantage, but hiding it a lot better than it's being hidden now. And from where we are now I can see no way to go back there. If any man is given the legal right to be in our intimate spaces I see no way of keeping any of them out. We completely lose our ability to police these spaces and to challenge any man who tries to enter.

"Why should they be forced to have painful and expensive surgery to enter your spaces? That's discrimination, and anyway, are you going to ask them to strip off to prove they've had surgery?" "Why should they be expected to present in any particular way to enter your spaces when women aren't held to the same standard?" "Why should they be told to behave in any particular way, especially in a way that respects women? What a cheek!" And so on, we've all heard it.

So IF these old-school transsexuals even exist (I have an open mind) then sorry, but the narcissistic AGP brigade has blown it for you. They've used you as the thin end of the wedge to allow any man at all to gain free access to our intimate spaces. We can only unbake that cake by excluding all males, legally. Exactly what sort of modus vivendi we work out after that may be another matter, but no male should ever have an unchallengeable, legal right to be in a female single-sex space.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Some corrections - Tubbs did not identify as a woman when they assaulted the 10 year old female, and in fact did not identify as a woman until AFTER they were arrested for that rape. Tubbs was not dressed in women's clothing when they raped the 10-yo female.

It was a pretty transparently blatant attempt to game the system by claiming to be trans after the fact, in order to secure a more comfortable prison sentence.
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Yes, if you read a bit further down the thread you'll see I realised that.

That's another oddity, that there has been so little discussion of that aspect. News reports continuing to refer to him as she, and so on. But at least he is in a completely segregated space in the female young offender institution he's been imprisoned in. He isn't getting access to the girls and they never see him. He is probably getting a softer lifestyle than male prisoners get, mind you.

There was an article in the Times a few days ago about male prisoners in Scotland declaring they're trans to get moved to a women's prison, then while they're there boasting about what they've done and bullying, harrassing and even sexually assaulting and raping the women, then once released reverting back to a male persona.

This charmer is still in jail I think. It will be interesting to see what happens when he gets out.
 
Rolfe said:
So IF these old-school transsexuals even exist (I have an open mind) then sorry, but the narcissistic AGP brigade has blown it for you. They've used you as the thin end of the wedge to allow any man at all to gain free access to our intimate spaces. We can only unbake that cake by excluding all males, legally. Exactly what sort of modus vivendi we work out after that may be another matter, but no male should ever have an unchallengeable, legal right to be in a female single-sex space.
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Yeah, that's true. The current TRA brigade is messing it up for those few "true transsexuals" too.
 
Rolfe said:
Yes, if you read a bit further down the thread you'll see I realised that.

That's another oddity, that there has been so little discussion of that aspect. News reports continuing to refer to him as she, and so on. But at least he is in a completely segregated space in the female young offender institution he's been imprisoned in. He isn't getting access to the girls and they never see him. He is probably getting a softer lifestyle than male prisoners get, mind you.

There was an article in the Times a few days ago about male prisoners in Scotland declaring they're trans to get moved to a women's prison, then while they're there boasting about what they've done and bullying, harrassing and even sexually assaulting and raping the women, then once released reverting back to a male persona.

This charmer is still in jail I think. It will be interesting to see what happens when he gets out.
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There were a couple of articles at the time that were pretty clear about Tubbs having "identified as a woman" after being arrested, but yeah, the whole "she" thing in there was very irritating. I had a pretty robust discussion about it elsewhere. Although I was taken aback by the number of "progressive" males who thought it was perfectly fine that a 26 year old fully intact male who was obviously gaming the system and claiming to be trans for the nice treatment got housed with juvenile females. You'd think I'd be past shock at this point... but the amount of bending over backward to justify why it was perfectly fine was truly baffling.
 
Just seen on twitter. "Every child who can be convinced they are transgender generates $1.3 million for the pharmaceutical industry." I haven't looked into the arithmetic behind this, but I will do. These are the figures that counter ST's whine that there are so few "trans kids" that nobody could possibly be seeing them as a source of profit.

Well, on these figures, if there aren't many, it makes good commercial sense to create some more. Enter Mermaids and the rest of them, with their picture books and their lesson plans to tell children who don't yet have a solid grasp of the difference between male and female that they can be whatever sex they choose and the doctors will give them a body to match. Judging by the referral rates to paediatric gender clinics it's all going nicely to plan.

Except for the kids who are being mutilated and sterilised and robbed of any adult sexual feeling and handed a portfolio of future health risks of course.
 
Emily's Cat said:
There were a couple of articles at the time that were pretty clear about Tubbs having "identified as a woman" after being arrested, but yeah, the whole "she" thing in there was very irritating. I had a pretty robust discussion about it elsewhere. Although I was taken aback by the number of "progressive" males who thought it was perfectly fine that a 26 year old fully intact male who was obviously gaming the system and claiming to be trans for the nice treatment got housed with juvenile females. You'd think I'd be past shock at this point... but the amount of bending over backward to justify why it was perfectly fine was truly baffling.
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I've been shocked by how little anyone seems to care about women in prison. It may be because it's all happening behind locked doors so it doesn't affect them. I thought the enormity of what's being done to vulnerable women in prison would be what would peak society as a whole, but it seems that sports is going to do it instead.

Because Laurel Hubbard and Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges and their mates are in front of the cameras.
 
Rolfe said:
I've been shocked by how little anyone seems to care about women in prison. It may be because it's all happening behind locked doors so it doesn't affect them. I thought the enormity of what's being done to vulnerable women in prison would be what would peak society as a whole, but it seems that sports is going to do it instead.

Because Laurel Hubbard and Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges and their mates are in front of the cameras.
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For the record, I care a lot about women in prison, and in other places as well. My view is that women in sports is easily accessible, as you say. It's also got incontrovertible statistical evidence to work with. You don't have to waste any time dealing with "evidence?" and "I don't trust that researcher" and "that journal is compromised". You can get straight to the data and its implications.

Therefore, my view is also that answering the sports question will necessarily answer all the other questions. I think this is why TRAs are standing firm on "sports doesn't matter". Because if sports does matter, then the sports problem has to be solved instead of ignored. And the same exact factors that make sports a problem make prisons a problem, and shelters a problem.

And the solution to the sports problem ends up being the same solution for all the other problems. At which point it becomes pretty clear that as a practical matter, where it counts, where there are problems in need of solutions, transwomen simply are not women.

And that's the end of the controversy. That's the end of the push to normalize men in women's prisons.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'm glad I'm not the only person who was incensed by that careless comment.
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Now you’re making me weigh in, too.

There may well be some mental illnesses that have a strong element of being socially constructed. But not all. And I have seen that very up close and way too personal, given my brother’s mental illness.
 
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